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»The Environment - Now and Then. Global warming«







crossfade:
so the world is just going to magically heal itself over night yeah?

volunteshiva:
Stinkz, regardless of global warming, hopefully you don't doubt that we are poisoning our environment?

People, you believe in evolution for goodness sake! Things will always get better, remember? This planet started off as a rock with some water and very little oxygen. If life can survive those conditions, I'm pretty sure it can survive our present condition. Based on evolutionary logic, if we poison the planet, it will become immune to poison! So whats the big concern?
fatpie42:
I have been quoting from scientists and all you can provide in response is an article which agrees with me. Well that's just perfect.

If you are talking about the site from global climate.org, I posted that because it was a scare-mongering article written back in 1975 about how the food supply was going to drastically decrease in 10 years. It was obviously erroneous.


posted by stinkz
  If popular thought feels 'science' to be different from all other kinds of knowledge because science is experimentally verifiable, it is mistaken.

in-my-opinion.org -> Technology, Computers, Science, Internet -> Science (Assorted topics) -> The Environment - Now and Then. Global warming

Oh right...



sorry i thought you must have posted the wrong article.

So why does your erroneous article, mean that my unbiased article from New Scientist is wrong?

I have been trying to find articles which SUPPORT your claim in respectable websites. That is how I came across an article considering the truth of sceptical claims on the New Scientist website.

If you have no evidence to back you up, what are your views based on Stinkz? Give us some reliable info supporting you! Or failing that give us some unreliable info supporting you! Give us something, for goodness sake!

posted by fatpie42
  "The beauty of the Superman came to me as a shadow. What are the gods to me now!"

I gave you a book



The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg.


posted by stinkz
  

Not convinced



Lomborg criticizes the way many environmental organizations make selective and misleading use of scientific data to influence decisions about the allocation of limited resources.


That doesn't prove that all the scientists who support global warming are wrong. If environmentalists were quoting actual scientists Lomborg wouldn't be able to make these claims. Scientists aren't all misusing their OWN date are they?

Here's what The Guardian has to say about your book:
My greatest concern, however, is with Lomborg's tone. He is clearly committed to rubbishing the views of hand-picked environmentalists, frequently the very silly ones such as Ehrlich, whom professionals have been ignoring for decades. This selective approach does not inspire much confidence: ridiculing idiots is easy. Who better to manipulate data in support of a particular point of view than a professional statistician? And who to trust with the task less than someone who argues like a lawyer?


But thanks for giving us an actual account to go on. What do you have to say about this review?


posted by fatpie42
  

On which level are we arguing here?



fatpie42:
That doesn't prove that all the scientists who support global warming are wrong.

FatPie, I think we are missing the point here. We are on an argumentative level, but maybe that's wrong. I think it is NOT a coincidence that Bush is a Christian and stinkz is one and Amy Moritz Ridenour is one.

When I have been amongst Jehova's witnesses for years, I noticed the same thing:

I think it's based on the fact that Christians EXPECT the world to soon end (because Jesus is about to return). Thus a normal statement like "We pollute our air" causes internally a feeling of "Yes, yes, the sign of the end times. Good , Jesus will come soon."

It also produces another feeling: "We as humans are rotten and we will never do as great works as god can do" = We cannot do anything about it anyway.

It also produces another feeling: "Only god is able to correct it"

Combine these 3 feelings (= "We cannot do anything" + "It's good that the world is so bad off" + "It's arrogant to try to heal the world") and you get a complete refusal to ACCEPT or to TRY anything.


posted by knn

Sensational!



stinkz:
People, you believe in evolution for goodness sake! Things will always get better, remember? This planet started off as a rock with some water and very little oxygen. If life can survive those conditions, I'm pretty sure it can survive our present condition. Based on evolutionary logic, if we poison the planet, it will become immune to poison! So whats the big concern?

I like how you take a simple question, "Are we poisoning our environment w/ waste?" and turn it into some eco-mystical propaganda that I am promoting. Simple question. If a company dumps chemicals/waste into the public water table/suppy, isn't that irresponsible/dangerous/punishable? Companies have dumped poisonous shit into the local environment and animals/humans have suffered from it. Very simple. I was just trying to get you to agree that this happens.

As for your crazy train of thought... huh? For one, yes life has shown on this planet that it can survive just about anything. But that doesn't mean much. ALOT of life doesn't survive! Even though the dinosaurs were starting to die out before the big meteor hit, pretty much none of them survived the impact and the resulting effects. Even following your crazy stream of logic here, if creatures become immune to some waste, that doesn't mean others won't! If 4 billion people died, but 2 billion became immune, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be reason for concern.

And as for your first statement there, "evolution... things will always get better"... Timescale is the key ingredient here. Things could be horrible for humanity for the next 1000yrs but the planet could reach a "better" state of equilibrium in 50,000 yrs. You continue to propigate this myth that evolutionists belive that things "must" get better over human timescales. 100 yr of a human life is nothing in evolutionary timescales! The environment/various ecospheres very likely can rebound from anything we can negatively do to them. But that doesn't mean it would happen in my lifetime or w/in many lifetimes. You need to think in large spans of time.

It's so humorous to watch you take a simple statement and juice it up w/ a standard dose of stinkz-sensationalism.


posted by volonteshiva
  

Please note



The recent posts from me and Stinkz began in Stinkz's 'propaganda films' thread.

As a result they are not about pollution. They are about global warming in particular. This argument was begun with a discussion about whether The Day After Tomorrow was propaganda.

- Just to avoid any confusion Smile

posted by fatpie42
  

fatpie



fatpie42:
What do you have to say about this review?

Well, for one, I can tell you why he most likely has a harsh tone. It is because he used to be one of the environmentalists he is now slamming.


posted by stinkz
  



stinkz:
I'm not ignorant of the propaganda... I know it all too well

White laugh

Dear stinkz, just today it came out that "Bush's environmental man" was repeatedaly perverting/altering scientific research:
A White House official who once led the oil industry's fight against limits on greenhouse gases has repeatedly edited government climate reports in ways that play down the links between such emissions and global warming, according to internal U.S. government documents.

In handwritten notes on drafts of several reports issued in 2002 and 2003, the official, Philip Cooney, removed or adjusted descriptions of climate research that government scientists and their supervisors, including some senior Bush administration officials, had already approved. In most cases, the changes appeared in the final reports.

The dozens of changes, while sometimes as subtle as inserting the phrase "significant and fundamental" before the word "uncertainties," tend to produce an air of doubt about findings that most climate experts say are robust.

Cooney is chief of staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, the office that helps devise and promote administration policies on environmental issues.

Before going to the White House in 2001, he was the "climate team leader" and a lobbyist at the American Petroleum Institute, the largest trade group representing the interests of the oil industry. A lawyer with a bachelor's degree in economics, he has no scientific training.
...
The American Petroleum Institute, where Cooney worked before going to the White House, has long taken a sharply different view. Starting with the negotiations leading to the Kyoto Protocol climate treaty in 1997, it has promoted the idea that lingering uncertainties in climate science justify delaying restrictions on emissions of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping smokestack and tailpipe gases.

On learning of the White House revisions, representatives of some environmental groups said the effort to amplify uncertainties in the science was clearly intended to delay consideration of curbs on the gases, which remain an unavoidable byproduct of burning oil and coal, during the rest of Bush's term of office.


Just another case of typical modus operandi of the Bush administration... What? When? Where? Why?


posted by knn
  



stinkz:
People, you believe in evolution for goodness sake! Things will always get better, remember? This planet started off as a rock with some water and very little oxygen. If life can survive those conditions, I'm pretty sure it can survive our present condition. Based on evolutionary logic, if we poison the planet, it will become immune to poison! So whats the big concern?

Wow, I can't believe I missed this one. Could stinkz have done a better job of displaying his complete lack of understanding of the theory of evolution? I mean, he did a fairly decent showing on the "Myth of Evolution" thread --- where he claimed that evolution says we will become gods. But this is even better.
knn:
Just another case of typical modus operandi of the Bush administration.

And yet, the Bush administration is going to get away with this blatant misinformation! It's infuriating. And so we're supposed to think that environmentalists are creating theories about the harm humans are causing the environment, even though they have no reason to make stuff up, when we can see anti-environmentalists ACTUALLY modifying the facts to suit their purposes.


posted by Tiefling
  



the earths climate has been changing over massive amounts of degrees for far longer than the industrial age...infact the earth is considered at its current temperature to be among the cooler average temperatures

evidence shows that several times throughout earths history that the water contained in the polar ice caps has been entirely liquid

even in recent history there has been significant shifts in global temperature as i previously mentioned...only 400 years ago there were grape vineyards in scandanavian countries showing evidence of near mediterainian temperatures

posted by the anomaly
  man is only half himself
the other half is a bright thing
he tumbles on by luck or grace
for man is ever a blind thing



i'm not sure whether you guys have mentioned this...but how about the carbon cycle? doesn't that come into play?
and somehow readjusts to compensate for the CO2 in the atmosphere...?
btw, my science knowledge ends at honors integrated science 2.

posted by sangu
  

Water vapour is a greenhouse gas too?



stinkz:
People, you believe in evolution for goodness sake! Things will always get better, remember? This planet started off as a rock with some water and very little oxygen.

Although you may believe that just because we want to evolve in a matter of years to cope with a possible very high temperature change, it's really not a matter of 'want' or 'try', and evolutionary adaptation is something that occurs over several million years, as opposed to the maybe a century or less that global warming might occur in. But 'nough of the off-topic crud.

Simple question guys: what do you think would cause more global warming, CO2 from pollution and exhaling, or water vapour evaporating from the seas?


[CLICK HERE TO VIEW THIS PICTURE]


posted by Nico
  

Greenpeace calls Bush 'International menace'



Lib Dem environment spokesman Norman Baker branded George W Bush the environment's "public enemy number one".

"Tony Blair has got no influence on Bush when it comes to climate change," he added.

Greenpeace executive director Stephen Tindale described Mr Bush as "an international menace" and said Mr Blair should "press on regardless".

And Catherine Pearce, of Friends of the Earth, described the latest draft as "disastrous".




posted by knn
  



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