In-My-Opinion.org

»Creationism vs Evolution«







Quote:
the examples i have given can indeed be found in text books...they are given because they are the best and clearest example for the case for evolution

Exactly. And since the examples are so bad, it shows the pathetic state evolution science is in. Regarding their idea of what causes evolution. Not regarding other achievements.


posted by knn

in-my-opinion.org -> Religion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolves -> Religious & Philosophical Topics -> Creationism vs Evolution

Design Evidences in the Cosmos



Over thirty parameters of the universe have been identified that must be carefully fixed in value for any kind of conceivable life (not just life as we know it) to exist at any time in the history of the universe. Some examples of these are given in Table 1.


i would put the list but knn would be mad because it is long...

actually just go here anomaly,
look under evidence for design and creation vs. evolution tabs... way too much for me too put here...but i may start... Aaah, is there anything better than to post here and to drink something


posted by The ONEder Man
  I know where you live. I will send a rape commando -- knn

That list is worth a penny. Or two. But not three.



Quote:
would put the list but knn would be mad because it is long...

1) It's not that long
2) I believe that each and every point of that list is... horseapples. Just a Christian's wish list to make life look more impropable.

Take for example #39:
oxygen quantity in atmosphere
if greater: plants and hydrocarbons would burn up too easily.
if less: advanced animals would have too little to breathe.


Whaaa? So all life there ever could be is oxygen dependant?

This entire list makes me angry.


posted by knn
  



Quote:
Exactly. And since the examples are so bad,

...and combined with thousands of other samples and observations make for a massive case FOR evolution

and as for the link...the examples i read did not put forward a case FOR creationism on its own evidence...but merely regurgitates the old..."this example of evolution is flawed so that means it must have been created" childish babble

i mean..."kidney stones...evidence for creationism"...what nonsense

it even contradicts itself...why would an intelligent super creator make human so susceptable to kidney stones?

and given that kidney stones are utterly avoidable through dietary means...in other words...its humans that make humans susceptable to kidney stones


posted by the anomaly
  man is only half himself
the other half is a bright thing
he tumbles on by luck or grace
for man is ever a blind thing

Then gimme it



Quote:
...and combined with thousands of other samples and observations make for a massive case FOR evolution

Like what? Give me one good example that there is an
1) Evolution via random DNA changes = An development from one higher life form to another higher life form
2) and not a Devolution
Quote:
it even contradicts itself...why would an intelligent super creator make human so susceptable to kidney stones?

That is a new topic but is actually simply answered: Adam was perfect, but he sinned.
Quote:
and given that kidney stones are utterly avoidable through dietary means...in other words...its humans that make humans susceptable to kidney stones

I like this academic logic: If there was evolution we would be perfect by now and had no kidney stones.


posted by knn
  

OK, anomaly, let's take this simple task



Since you claim that there is evolution (= life forms rise to higher and higher body states) then how would the following example happen:

Let's take humans as they are.
Let's say you know (if you could look into the future) that humans in 2 million years from now will have wings.
Now explain to me how THAT could happen by random DNA change.

The opposite could happen very easily: We had wings 2 million years AGO, and now we lost them. Due to radioactivity parts of our DNA that coded for wings got damaged. But that's a DEvolution and would 99% hint at some secret forces (gods? Mighty spirits? Aliens?) since it means that 80 million years ago there were life forms with better bodies than now.

posted by knn
  

another link





you seem to be stuck with the notion that only random dna changes effect the occurence of evolution...this is not the case...see link above from speciation and genetic drift

as for human evolution...here is 2 good examples

1:the appendix organ...once thought to be similar in humans as it is in other creatures...

2:the bone at the base of your spine...whats its common name?...that's right...the "tail" bone...

humans once had tail...now they do not...and why not...because tails were used for gripping...we now have opposable thumbs instead...so the increasingly used thumbs became more evolved and the decreasingly used tail shrank and vanished

this is evolution of speciation variety...adaptation in the short term...

what speciation is scientificaly considered to be is when a single species population grows...then 2 or more separate groups of the same species become isolated evolution isolation mechanisms 

the separate groups then survive by adapting to the enviroments in which they exist...these enviroments are naturally changing all the time(techtonic plates moving...ice ages etc)

so over hundreds of thousands of years the species evolve

the best examples of this at a genetic level are the marcupial species throughout the world...they are considered to be extremely similar genetically yet can vary in appearance greatly...each showing particular adaptations to their specific enviroments

a species then becomes 2 species when the 2 adapted animals are unable to breed with each other or the original species(if still present in an ecosystem)


posted by the anomaly
  

are we arguing many different points?



abiogenesis: The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter.

evolution: Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

microevolution: Evolution resulting from a succession of relatively small genetic variations that often cause the formation of new subspecies.

macroevolution: Large-scale evolution occurring over geologic time that results in the formation of new taxonomic groups.

Typically, observable instances of evolution are examples of microevolution, for example, bacterial strains that have become resistant to antibiotics. Because microevolution can be observed directly, both pro-evolution and some anti-evolution groups agree that it is a fact of life.

Some critics, mostly creationists, accept that microevolution occurs in the short term, whereas macroevolution, specifically leading to speciation, is expressly rejected. They claim that known sources of variation can only account for variation within species, and can not account for the variation between larger taxonomic groups, thus making macroevolution impossible.

In the creationist hypothesis of intelligent design this distinction is absolute and central. Intelligent design advocates argue that microevolution may be explained by constant, observable, natural forces, but that macroevolution must be explained by other forces.



posted by The ONEder Man
  

another link





you seem to be stuck with the notion that only random dna changes effect the occurence of evolution...this is not the case...see link above from speciation and genetic drift

as for human evolution...here is 2 good examples

1:the appendix organ...once thought to be similar in humans as it is in other creatures...as in it once produced an enzyme to help digest tough plant food(grass for instance...go on...eat loads and see what happens without a working appendix)

2:the bone at the base of your spine...whats its common name?...that's right...the "tail" bone...

humans once had tail...now they do not...and why not...because tails were used for gripping...we now have opposable thumbs instead...so the increasingly used thumbs became more evolved and the decreasingly used tail shrank and vanished

this is evolution of speciation variety...adaptation in the short term...

what speciation is scientificaly considered to be is when a single species population grows...then 2 or more separate groups of the same species become isolated evolution isolation mechanisms 

the separate groups then survive by adapting to the enviroments in which they exist...these enviroments are naturally changing all the time(techtonic plates moving...ice ages etc)

so over hundreds of thousands of years the species evolve

the best examples of this at a genetic level are the marcupial species throughout the world...they are considered to be extremely similar genetically yet can vary in appearance greatly...each showing particular adaptations to their specific enviroments

a species then becomes 2 species when the 2 adapted animals are unable to breed with each other or the original species(if still present in an ecosystem)

but to your point

say the human race evolved without the ability to climb effectively(which is true in my case White laugh )...and then a group of humans were isolated in an area whereby all food sources were high up...this would then either through adaptation to the enviroment...cause the species to gain food without expenditure of more energy than the food contained...and thus wings(but more likely better climbing skills) to obtain the food

although the example would take a long time as you would be talking about the evolution not just of a species to another...but infact would need a reclassification from mammal to bird

but how do i see humans evolving

think about this...humans now need less physical strength as technology is removing "hard graft" from human life...already it is observable that humans on average are less physically strong that years ago...scandanavian cultures(vikings etc) were documented to be regularly larger than the average height/weight of humans today)

so the less hard work the less the need for dense muscle...so the limbs become thinner

the need for higher sensory input and mental capacity to cope with the huge volumes of information needed or furthering of techology may result in a larger head for a larger brain...as well as larger eyes for visual input(the most important sense)

perhaps the technology will enable us to leave the solar system and survive outwith the confines of a star system

so the need for skin pigment to protect from UV rays may become less(even sunblock could initiate this evolution)

so the skin turns grey/white

so...skinny arms and legs...huge heads with bulging eyes...and grey skin...

can you see what im getting at? White laugh


posted by the anomaly
  

anomaly's contradictions



Quote:
can i just say this has been the best thread for a while

no one gonna win the argument...but that's not gonna stop us

and
Quote:
your beginning to bore me to tears with your non arguments

how can we believe anything he says? White laugh just messin with ya buddy


posted by The ONEder Man
  



its fun...and its keeping my evolved grey matter active before the return to forensics next week

maybe itll get my $imo up...or do only get imo for agreeing with knn

that his secret algorithim White laugh

posted by the anomaly
  

anomaly



i think you might be on to something with you secret algorithm... Thumb Up btw did you miss my last post before yours? i was editing as you posted yours and mine ended up behind yours...as to which point are we discussing? i thought the original topic had to do with my first definition...abiogenesis 


posted by The ONEder Man
  

it did and it didn't



abiogenesis concerns the theory that a combination of inorganic molecules and non living protein bases were combined to form organic simple amino acids which are what DNA is made of...

the atmosphere needed was a reducing atmosphere which means that no or minute quantities of free oxygen is present

it is a controvertial point as iron ferite has been shown to be dated to around the time of the estimate of the formation of the earth...so the oxygen may have restricted abiogenesis at the beginning

but what has not been investigated considerably is whether or not the relatively small(compared with today)volume of oxygen may have been used up(without plant to replace it,then it would have depleted overtime)

this would then create the reducing atmosphere needed for abiogenesis

the electric current needed would be by way of lightning or massive static caused by massive volcanic events(ash clouds can create lightning as you may have seen in footage of eruptions)

the next controvertial point is the formation under lab conditions to recreate abiogenesis that created in "left handed" and "right handed" amino acid strains

in reality in life...only one type exists and the one that does was less robust than the other created in the lab and had to be filtered and concentrated to get accurate results(a problem of the lab conditions)

and the last problem of abiogenesis is the interferance of UV rays from the sun which breakdown the proteins quite rapidly

but the experiment showed in essence that it was possible under the right conditions although was flawed and criticised for being quite primative(it was conducted in 1932)

since then scientists have created life many times in the lab...including ones that use an entirely different basic DNA code than all other life on earth

this adds a powerful argument that if life was made by a super being...then why are humans able to do it also...are we the real creationists?

if only humans were on the earth a couple of days after its creation...then we might just know... White laugh

regardless of abiogenesis...life has evolved ever since...and will continue

and still...i see no argument FOR creationism as opposed to AGAINST evolution

posted by the anomaly
  

Knn that's BS



In order for a mutation to be inhertited all you need is for one of the parents to have the mutation. Chromosones are received from both parents, remember?

posted by fatpie42
  

Re: or better yet



Sorry, my last quote was posted in reply to Knn's post at the end of the first page. I didn't realise there were two more pages to look at (it's been a couple of days since I last posted)

In answer to this:
the anomaly:
where is the evidence to show the creators existence?

any evidence...any at all...ive been asking for days now but no one has posted any

why is that

and as knn liked to say regarding another argument

its not up to me to prove that it doesnt exist...its up to you to prove that it does...

and with the utter and complete lack of anything to substantiate it...well...you do "the math"

The evidence is as follows. There are three major arguments (haven't you seen this billions of times before?)

(1) A triangle needs to have three sides by necessity. A triangle is a three sided shape by definition therefore any three sided object MUST be a triangle. God similarly MUST exist by necessity because he is ALL PERFECT by definition. If he didn't exist he would not be pefect and therefore just as a three sided object must be a triangle, a perfect God must exist.
(yes this argument IS bs)

(2) The universe requires a first cause which is sufficient to have created it. Surely this could only be a God?
(yeah, vague and crap)

(3) The world is a complicated place. There is nothing that scientists know better. Why is there all this complexity when there could be nothing? Why is there anything at all, patterned or chaotic? If you saw a watch on a beach you would presume someone had created it - when we see the intricate patterns of atoms and genes and the wonderful lives we experience because of these complex systems should we not wonder whether they were intended? Even if we imagine them to be by chance should we not wonder why they are here?

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but why is there ANY energy? (On several occaisions I have seen people suggest a connection between God and energy, just as in the past one might have equated God with a kind of 'life force. It is logical, even if it is not rational.)

I'm not saying there is a God, but I am saying that there is evidence and you must be really closed-minded not to see it. Same goes to creationists - you must be really closed-minded to deny that there is evidence for evolution. But the problem here isn't whether there is evidence - but whether there is ENOUGH evidence and that is a different debate entirely!


posted by fatpie42
  "The beauty of the Superman came to me as a shadow. What are the gods to me now!"



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