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bush had implemented an extensive security programme before sept 11th then the lefties would be screaming even louder about civil liberties being infringed...because there would have been no massive attack hence the accusations of exagerrated threats would be even more prevalent do you agree? posted by the anomaly |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsBush, Kerry, IraqClinton failed in protecting the US |
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Quote: bush had implemented an extensive security programme before sept 11th then the lefties would be screaming even louder about civil liberties being infringed...because there would have been no massive attack Please don't argue with something that we cannot prove or disprove. "If Bush had then the lefties had". Morever, an extensive program was NOT needed. I just need to mention here, that the jetplanes did not even start to stop the hijacked machines. posted by knn |
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the first attack on the wtc WAS on clintons watch FEB 26, 1993 thus voiding everything you said about clinton protecting the US and bush not being able to... to add to this a bit, one of clintons own advisors on iraq had many things to say about it... Much of the discussion dealt with the policies of former President Bill Clinton, for whom Mylroie served as an advisor on Iraq during the 1992 presidential campaign. Mylroie reported that her former boss had taken a tough stance toward Iraq on the campaign trail; once he took office, however, Clinton suddenly developed an aversion to dealing with what Mylroie called "the unfinished business of the Gulf War."
The response to the bombing of the World Trade Center in February of 1993 demonstrated the weakness of the Clinton administration's policies on terrorism, Mylroie said. The New York FBI suspected that Iraq had played a major role in the bombing, citing the sophistication of the attack plan and the suspicious ease with which the alleged perpetrators had been captured. Most intelligence officials, however, promoted the theory that state-sponsored terrorism had given way to attacks by "loose networks" of terrorists such as al Qaeda, with the WTC bombing being a case in point. Mylroie disagreed and wrote a book making the case that Iraq had planned the WTC bombing and used Islamic militants to cover its tracks. Although she had assembled a great deal of evidence, including information from the New York FBI's investigation, she was informed that there was no market for the book-one publisher even told her that the subject didn't merit a book of its own because only six people died in the attack. Former President Clinton was aware of the evidence of Iraqi involvement in the attack, Mylroie reported, but brushed it aside because of his reluctance to confront Iraq. The administration "spun the media away" from evidence of Iraqi coordination, Mylroie said, and clung to the theory that the bombing was performed by terrorists unaffiliated with any state. The CIA went so far as to ignore and even suppress evidence of Iraq's possible role in terrorism, she charged. Mylroie recalled other errors of judgment from the Clinton years. In June 1993, after Iraq's failed attempt to assassinate former President George Bush, Clinton ordered cruise missiles launched at Iraqi intelligence headquarters, thinking that this would be sufficient to deter Saddam Hussein from any future attacks. In 1998, Clinton called off a bombing 30 minutes beforehand when Iraq faxed the U.N. a promise to comply with weapons inspections. One of the main problems with 1990s counterterrorism efforts, Mylroie argued, was that the U.S. too often treated terrorism as an issue of law enforcement rather than one of national security. As such, the issue was left to prosecutors, who were concerned only with convicting individual terrorists, neglecting the question of whether their actions might have been coordinated by a foreign government. so lets see... someone finally has the balls to go on the offensive with terrorists, not getting pushed around over and over again like most of the world does, being a leader in the war on terror, and he get looked down upon? not the terrorists that do the innocent killings all over the world? even in the countries that protest the war on terror? wtf? just goes to show you how backwards the world is these days... btw nice discussion guys...keep it up! posted by The ONEder Man |
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Quote: the first attack on the wtc was on clintons watch FEB 26, 1993 thus voiding everything you said about clinton protecting the US and bush not being able to... 1) Well, you cannot have 100% protection, can you? 2) Let's put it in Dick Clarke ♣'s words (read his whole statement, please): Well, a great deal was done. The [Clinton] administration stopped the al Qaeda attacks in the United States and around the world at the millennium period, they stopped al Qaeda in Bosnia, they stopped al Qaeda from blowing up embassies around the world, they authorized covert lethal action by the CIA against al Qaeda, they retaliated with cruise missile strikes into Afghanistan, they got sanctions against Afghanistan from the United Nations. There was a great deal the administration did, even though at the time, prior to 9/11, al Qaeda had arguably not done a great deal to the United States.
If you look at the eight years of the Clinton administration, al Qaeda was responsible for the deaths of fewer than 50 Americans over those eight years. Contrast that with Ronald Reagan, where 300 Americans were killed in Lebanon and there was no retaliation. Contrast that with the first Bush administration where 260 Americans were killed on Pan-Am 103 and there was no retaliation. I would argue that for what had actually happened prior to 9/11, the Clinton administration was doing a great deal. In fact, so much that when the Bush people came into office they thought I was a little crazy, a little obsessed with this "little terrorist" [Osama] bin Laden. Why wasn't I focused on Iraqi-sponsored terrorism. Actually the whole interview draws a dark picture of the administration. Clinton was doing everything possible. Bush was doing utterly nothing. posted by knn |
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Quote: 1) Well, you cannot have 100% protection, can you? this statement proves mine and anomaly's whole point on this thread! you can't have 100% protection NO MATTER who is president, just because on clinton's watch the attempt to take down the tower failed and on bush's watch they did come down...doesn't mean that bush's terrorist policies were any less than bill clinton's...both attacks still happened! Quote: I am talking about his responsibility for 9/11. so just because the bigger of the 2 attacks happened to be under bush then it's his fault? the main difference i see is that bush had the inititive to revamp the homeland security in hopes it wouldn't happen again...clinton did not, and guess what? it DID happen again...but as you said being 100% protected will never happen so its possible even with the new security messures it will happen again posted by The ONEder Man |
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and thought i'd add the quote Quote: CLARKE: I think the message is that the United States mechanisms -- the FBI, CIA, DOD, the White House -- failed during both the Clinton administration and during the Bush administration i agree with this statement posted by The ONEder Man |
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Quote: i agree with this statement You are picking raisins here. This is probably the most pro-Bush thing regarding terrorism Clarke said. Quote: you can't have 100% protection NO MATTER who is president, just because on clinton's watch the attempt to take down the tower failed and on bush's watch they did come down. Yes, but 50 deaths in 8 years vs. thousands in 8 months is a difference. Thus Clinton protected in 99% of the cases and Bush in 1% of the cases. You try to defend the Bush administration, although Clarke repeatedly says how incompetent they were. He is a 30 year veteran and served under 4 presidents face to face, and he says that Bush "has done a terrible job". And, ahem, 911 proves him right. I don't know what there is more to talk about. That there was an attack against an US ship somewhere during Clinton watch? Give me a break. Bush was so incompetent and so frustrating and ignored so many warnings, Bush even _forbid_ Clarke to brief him on terrorism. Clarke was so p*ssed that 7 days (7 days!) before September 11th he wrote a last warning to Condi Rice Quote: "to imagine a day after a terrorist atack, with hundreds of Americans dead at home and abroad, and ask themselves what they could have done better." posted by knn |
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A highly interesting interview, where Richard Clarke tells the difference between the fast + thourough actions of Clinton and the slowing down actions of Bush/Rice: Clarke: Because on June 21st, I believe it was, George Tenet ♣ called me and said, "I don't think we're getting the message through. These people [Bush administration] aren't acting the way the Clinton people did under similar circumstances."
And I suggested to Tenet that he come down and personally brief Condi Rice, that he bring his terrorism team with him. And we sat in the national security adviser's office. And I've used the phrase in the book to describe George Tenet's warnings as "he had his hair on fire." He was about as excited as I had ever seen him. And he said, "Something is going to happen." Now, when he said that in December 1999 to the national security adviser, at the time Sandy Berger, Sandy Berger then held daily meetings throughout December 1999, in the White House situation room, with the FBI director, the attorney general, the head of the CIA, the head of the Defense Department. And they shook out of their bureaucracies every last piece of information to prevent the attacks. And we did prevent the attacks in December 1999. Dr. Rice chose not to do that. I don't know how much clearer someone can get that Bush is a co-terrorist so to speak. As a Bush supporter I hate to say it, but Bush has blood on his hands . posted by knn |
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Quote: Yes, but 50 deaths in 8 years vs. thousands in 8 months is a difference. Thus Clinton protected in 99% of the cases and Bush in 1% of the cases. so your telling me that since the terrorists plans fell through on the first attempt('93) so they researched, got better plans and acomplished what they set out to do in 93(9/11) that clinton protected the US better? that doesn't make sense, THE ATTACKS BOTH HAPPENED, just because one attack was better cooridinated than the other(more time to prepare and the failed attempt before) that's makes bush less of a protector? the sucess rate and amount of people the terrorists killed are what proof you are using? neither are better at protecting, the terrorists suceeded both times and the amount of death has no baring on that fact. posted by The ONEder Man |
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how do these go hand in hand? Quote: Bush is a co-terrorist so to speak Quote: As a Bush supporter posted by The ONEder Man |
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Quote: neither are better at protecting, the terrorists suceeded both times and the amount of death has no baring on that fact. Call me naive, but 35 dead Americans and a lot of prevented attacks in 8 years VS. thousands of killed Americans and NO prevented attack in 8 months speaks books. Ask some friends whether the amount of death has baring on that fact. The amount of death is EXACTLY the difference. It takes much more terroristic logistic to do 911. Thus Bush had much more time and opportunities to stop them. I can't believe why you are protecting this guy. Can I ask you something? Imagine you could observe Bush pre-911. What would he have to do to make you say: "Well, obviously this president doesn't care about security". Aren't Dick Clarkes exact descriptions enough? posted by knn |
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Quote: how do these go hand in hand? Why not? 50% of Americans are pro Bush, although
Why are YOU pro Bush? Because he takes rigorous steps? posted by knn |
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earlier in the page you asked me not to say things that cannot be proved or disproved is this not exactly the argument of the left...being that if bush was more interested in al queda then the wtc attacks would not have occured so i would appreciate if you didn't use double standards in this debate another point...you say 911 needed more logistics so bush had more time to stop it...no...he had 8 months...and if it was being planned during gb snr's administration...then that means clinton had a full 8 years to stop it...but didn't... as for the reaction to attack...clinton does his little bomb raid etc after the first attack on the wtc...bush invades 2 countries...destroys the terrorist main bases...kills many of the top terrorist planners...seizes and freezes millions in terrorist assets...locks up many terrorists throughout the world...stops any other threatened attacks from happening on US soil since. id say he is doing quite well posted by the anomaly |
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Quote: id say he is doing quite well Post 9/11 yes, he's doing quite a lot. Pre 911 he failed. *Blood on his hands and face* posted by knn |
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Hell, Bush was so incompent as president that he not only p*ssed Dick Clarke off (after 30 years in office), but the next security advisor (Rand Beers) also quit only after 1 month. He was so p*ssed that he volunteered as national security adviser for John F. Kerry. His words are devastating (as are Dick Clarke's words): "The administration wasn't matching its deeds to its words in the war on terrorism. They're making us less secure, not more secure," said Beers, who until now has remained largely silent about leaving his National Security Council job as special assistant to the president for combating terrorism. "As an insider, I saw the things that weren't being done. And the longer I sat and watched, the more concerned I became, until I got up and walked out." Rand Beers has also served on the National Securicy Council for 4 presidents (for 35 years): He says
Most probably the statements of these 2 security advisors are the best proof you can get of Bush's incompetence prior 9/11. I don't think you will ever hear something more clear out of the mouth of former employees. Face it: Bush not only failed, but it seems that he actively underminded the security of the United States. Yet, he doesn't resign, nor did he apologize for 9/11. posted by knn |
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The time now is 9 January 2009, 23:30 php B.B. |