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Following on from the thread at IMO → Da Vinci Code - I've found the big hole in the theory. I though it might be interesting to explore some of the ideas raised in the Dan Brown book (now I've finally finished it). Looking at the facts behinds the fiction and trying to lift the veil so to speak. If you want to rag on the book and I would suggest the above thread. It would be nice to combine the diverse range of knowledge and beleifs here to see what we can find out. Though I'm aware that it could turn into another religious argument The book is loved by the conspiracy crowd and hated by a lot of christian organisations, and it's easy to see why. The principal premise is that the Catholic Church selectively edited the bible we use today to suit their own needs - effectively rewriting history. So the premise pulls no punches, but does it hold water? Links for reference The Davinci Code - The Book Random House - The Publisher (mini online quest) Crisis Magazine - Dismantling The Da Vinci Code Cracking the Davinci Code - A Counter Book Subrosa - A Fan Site Let us Reason - The Da Vinci Code and Other Deceptions LeadershipU - The Da Vinci Code: Of Magdalene, Gnostics, the Goddess and the Grail and probably the best place to start About.com - Da Vinci code research guide Key themes (Serious Spoilers) While the story wanders in and out of the histories of certain organisations, embellishing where necessary, it tends to work towards a main theme. The theme being the "true" history. And while it presents this as one big muddle of facts, I thought it better to break it down a little so that the truth of one point doesn't necessaily require the truth of the others. Here' the key points that I can remember (I may add stuff as required)
Any takers? posted by Marl64 |
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| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsDavinci Code - Seeking the fact behind the fiction |
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I think you got it all, leaving no room for discussion! posted by Echelon |
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Um what facts? There is very little in Dan Brown's novel for which there is any evidence. I shall look through your list though.
Yeah whatever posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: Um what facts? That was the point of the thread fatpie42: Well duh! Why duh! the assumption that everyone is as well read as you? fatpie42: Eostre, the pagan fertility God is the reason why we have eggs at easter. The war God, Janus, who looks 6 days into the future and 6 into the past is the reason for the twelve days of Christmas. Good stuff, I didn't know these fatpie42: The only way you can dismiss Mary as a 'holy feminine' is the fact that she is seen as virginal which might suggest that women cannot be divine after having sex. I didn't think this was a reference to Mary in the book The reference to the "holy feminine" might have been "devine feminine" as you state, but I was under the impression it was more a recognition of the importance of the femininity as a whole going back to the worship of Venus and such. This section of the book did make me pause for thought on the way various religions have treated women for centuries. It doesn't sound like something a divine being would encourage. fatpie42: If Jesus had a child it would have been mentioned in the gospels. Would these be the gospels alledged to have been "removed from history"? fatpie42: I don't see who it would need to protected from. You didn't finish the book did you? The badguys (as stated elsewhere) were the Catholic Church whose entire foundation is based (win the book at least) on a lie. It was their desire to destroy any evidence of the fact that required the protection of the grail and the bloodline. In the book the two are seperate, but some theories have them as the same thing - this is probably the Merovingian viewpoint. fatpie42: [*]These include the Priory of Sion, The Knights Templar and several others
So? It was intended to illicit a discussion on these organisations. fatpie42: [*]Many famous historical figures were members of these secret societites
Once again proof would be nice. I was hoping somebody might have some fatpie42: Another link to merovingian kings - now prove they weren't liars. At the moment I can't prove they were or they weren't fatpie42: I think that King Arthur and his knights would be slighlty confused to find that where the holy grail was just a pile of bones. I'm not entirely convinced that finding some old woman's bones is worthy of a quest. So you beleive in King Arthur? Thanks for your input. posted by Marl64 |
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You talked about the gospels 'removed from history'. Well, the gnostic gospels essentially WERE removed from history. The had been buried for centuries and we are lucky to have found them. Even in these lost gospels it STILL doesn't mention a child. No I don't believe in King Arthur, but Dan Brown believes in Templar Knights going on pilgrimages to pay homage to Mary Magdelene's corpse and I think that is unlikely. Actually the bad guys in the book were Opus Dei weren't they? It is woth noting that Opus Dei does not contain monks. It is made up of laymen and has no monasteries. Even if the Roman Catholic authorities were the bad guys in the novel, why should they care in real life? If the religion was a lie what would they lose other than their faith? If they already knew it was a lie they'd have even LESS to lose. Maybe someone else has more information on these 'secret societies' and can shed some light here? posted by fatpie42 |
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Before you read my post further let me state that I have no clue whatsoever about any Davinci Code. It was the first time in this forum that I heard about it. Marl64: Chritianity as we know it is a mesh of several older religions Is there ANY religion in the world that is not a mesh or features anything that hasn't been said somewhere else? Building a new mesh out of older data is an achievement in itself. Marl64: Jesus was not only mortal Sure, he died on the cross. Marl64: Good stuff, I didn't know these Now if you are after facts like these there is no fact/wonder in the new testament that couldn't be tracked down to some ancient gods. Dying in the middle of three, coming back after 2 days, being born to a virgin, a star shines the way, trinity... All from older religions That doesn't change "the fact" that Jesus came back. It only underlines the need for any religion to have it's original works "copyrighted and patented" to ensure that it's true belief stays orthodox (= unaltered). posted by knn |
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A site with all sorts of stuff about Grail, King Arthur, freemasons Merovingians etc. and some nice stuff on the origins of chess Sadly the stuff about the Priory is not the most up to date (as will become apparant on the next site) For those who love a good mystery complete with enigmatic puzzles and secret cyphers I would suggest reading the story of the uncovering of the mystery of Rennes-le-Château - the principal basis for "The Davinci Code" It details the discovery of certain documents which contain codes which revealed hidden symbology in certain paintings. Hi res images of those paintings can be found at For a walkthrough of the mystery and how it was uncovered visit Sadly they don't give full details of all the solutions, but you'll get the idea... ...then near the bottom of the page you get a section headed "Sources and Documents Exposed" which explains how the whole thing was set up. Yes you got it - The Priory of Sion was all part of an elaborate hoax originally devised to promote a restaraunt Then quickly hop over to "The Pierre Plantard Archives" at for a more in depth explanation of pretty much everything related to the Priory of Sion. It contains comprehensive details of all aspects of the history, mystery, the solution, the media, the hype and the debunking, including references to books, documents and historical records to support what it says. Yes lots of lovely proof for knn It also examines the book itself Dan Brown’s heroes may not have much psychological consistency, but they are formidably persuasive. They use comparative religion to guide us through the maze of the Eternal Mysteries, each using his or her own specialist topic as a starting point. Did you know, for example, that the solar disk of the Ancient Egyptian gods became the halo of the saints? That December 25th was also the birthday of Dionysus? That Snow White, who bit into the poisoned apple, is a ‘reference to the fall of Eve in the Garden of Eden’? That the Pyramid at the Louvre was commissioned by François Mitterrand, who was nicknamed the ‘Sphinx’, an event that, according to ‘The Da Vinci Code’, was certainly no accident? Dan Brown’s novel is like a gigantic funfair in which a merry-go-round of erudition dazzles the eye with the unexpected and with things that are not quite what they seem. An enquiry into the sources of ‘The Da Vinci Code’ So (until a counter counter argument emerges with as much supporting evidence) it looks like we can scratch one Secret Society off the list posted by Marl64 |
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Priory of Sion Deception Papers Which has a nice comment under Priory of Sion Misconceptions VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING on the Internet about the Priory of Sion can be described as pure hokum that cannot be treated seriously. The various accounts found on all the websites are all similar to each other and are mostly plagiarisms of the accounts found in The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail [1] and in The Messianic Legacy [2], and one is led to believe that the whole world is composed of Flat Earthers who do not want to accept the evidence of the Hubble Telescope (Plantard was a proven charlatan and forger who lived in a world of his own [3]).
References : [1] First published in 1982, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail contained nothing new about the Priory of Sion that had not been published in France years beforehand – except a new set of alleged 'Statutes of the Priory of Sion signed by Jean Cocteau'. Its account of Bérenger Saunière was debunked in 1974 by René Descadeillas in his Mythologie du Trésor de Rennes. [2] Published in 1986, The Messianic Legacy contained more Priory of Sion hokum treated seriously, linking it with Guardian Assurance (and capitalising on accounts first started by Louis Vazart in 1983). It omitted the proper conflict between Pierre Plantard and Jean-Luc Chaumeil, and various documentation relating to this conflict found in the 1984 Priory Document L'Affaire Jean-Luc Chaumeil (Rennes-le-Château) by Philippe de Chérisey (BN Code EL 4 Z Piece 245). The book also omitted the Statutes of the Alpha Galates. [3] Pierre Plantard's re-written history of Bérenger Saunière and Rennes-le-Château as found in the Priory Documents was debunked in Descadeillas' Mythologie du Trésor de Rennes (1974). The fraudulent nature of the "parchments" and Plantard's claim to be descended from Dagobert II was exposed in a 1996 British television documentary, The History of a Mystery, using primary evidence provided by the French author Jean-Luc Chaumeil. posted by Marl64 |
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fatpie42: Nevertheless there are some aspects which are unique to Christianity. Which ones? fatpie42: Mary Magdelene isn't a prostitute in the Bible. It may be common mistake but it isn't the Churches fault. Unless you can give accounts where the papacy has actively depicted Mary Magdelene as a prostitute then this is, once again, a moot point. Whose fault is it then? fatpie42: If Jesus had a child it would have been mentioned in the gospels. It would be uncharacteristic for anyone who had great respect for Jesus not to show the same respect to his child. At very least, the child would be mentioned. Maybe it WAS mentioned, but it was removed later. Manipulation is the key word here. fatpie42: The merovingian kings claimed to be descended from Christ and they had much more to gain from this belief than the Roman emperors ever had to lose from it. Not true. If Jesus was divine and never had sex, how the hell were they going to explain that he had descendants? posted by Echelon |
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knn: There is no fact/wonder in the new testament that couldn't be tracked down to some ancient gods. Dying in the middle of three, coming back after 2 days, being born to a virgin, a star shines the way, trinity... All from older religions Which religions mr. clever clogs? The ones that Dan Brown mentions are incorrect i'm afraid: The Da Vinci Code, on page 232: claims: "Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian god Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 was also the birthday of Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
This sequence of claims has puzzled many critics of Brown's book as to their possible origin, if indeed they have an origin outside of the author's imagination. Serious scholars who have studied the Mithraic traditions, including Franz Cumont, paint a very different portrayal. They don't mention any death of Mithra, and they certainly don't mention any type of resurrection for Mithra. Some Christians do celebrate Christmas on December 25 as a time of year to commemorate the birth and life of Jesus. But that doesn't mean that they believe that Jesus was born on that particular date. In fact, the Bible does not mention a specific birth date for Jesus. For comparison, consider the American holiday called "Presidents Day." The holiday occurs on a day in February, but that doesn't mean that Americans believe that all presidents were born on that particular day in February. Of course not. It is simply a day that is set aside to commemorate American presidents. As for the claim that the myths known as Osiris, Adonis and Dionysus were born on December 25, I have been unable to track down any scholarly source that actually makes that claim. In regards to some of the other claims involving Mithra and Christianity, consider the following from page 87 of de-coding Da Vinci: The facts behind the fiction of The Da Vinci Code by Amy Welborn: "Mithras was a god with many forms. By the centuries after Christ, his cult was primarily a mystery religion, popular among men, especially soldiers. Mithraic studies do not find any attribution of the titles 'Son of God' or 'Light of the World,' as Brown claims. There is also no mention of a death-resurrection motif in Mithraic mythology. Brown seems to have picked this up from a discredited nineteenth-century historian, who provided no documentation for his assertion. The same historian is the source for the Krishna connection to which Brown alludes. There is not a single story in actual Hindu mythology of Krishna being presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh at his birth (see Miesel and Olsen, Cracking the Anti-Catholic Code)." posted by fatpie42 |
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Echelon: Not true. If Jesus was divine and never had sex, how the hell were they going to explain that he had descendants? No one ever said that Jesus never had sex. They only say it now because of Paul's anti-sex concepts which did not come about for another 100 years. If Jesus had definitely had sex no one would have anything to lose by saying so. Even if he did have sex, if he had a child there couldn't help but be a reference to it, especially in the gnostic gospels which the orthodox christians tried to destroy (which were written far later than the other gospels anyway). posted by fatpie42 |
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I just listened to a couple of (audiobook) lectures by Dr. Bart Ehrman ♣ called "Fact and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code" They produced by the teaching company and are (or were) available free somewhere (sorry I couldn't find a link to them on the site, they may have been withdrawn) Both 32 minutes long they examine the historical accuracy of two specific areas within the book; 1) Constantine and the Formation of the Christian Canon 2) Jesus of Nazareth and Mary Magdalene And are well worth listening to. The first gives an excellent overview of the plot and the claims made in the book - ideal for someone who has not read it and is still curious. In General the claims which are explored include; - Mary Magdalene was Jesus's Lover and bore him a child, after Jesus was crucified, Mary fled to france and there the ancestral line was continued - There were secret documents kept about this bloodline. These documents celebrate the feminine doctrine in early Christianity, Mary as emblematic of the devine feminine worshipped as Jesus' holy consort - These documents included a number of early Gospels that came to be supressed by early Christianity in the forth Century - especially by the Emporer Constantine - Constantine destroyed the 80 some Gospels that were vying for position in the new testament - Constantine elevated Jesus from the position of being a mere mortal to becoming the Son of God - Constantine completely silenced the tradition about Mary and the Divine feminine, Demonising the Feminine in Christianity and destroying it's true nature as a celebration of the feminine diety in Nature The lectures are well presented and this guy obviously knows his stuff. But what impressed me was his approach to the subject. Very objective, he doesn't get bogged down in the old "is the bible right or wrong" argument, but instead presents clear historical evidence to support (or indeed counter) the relevant parts of the bible. He gives a good account of the rise of Christianity and where something is simply not known or is unconfirmed outside scripture, he says so without trying to justify it's absence. For example, he refutes the idea that Constantine was responsible for editing the new testament, but acknowledges that editing has taken place. He in fact states that constantine did not supress the Divine Feminine, and instead points out that this aspect of Christianity was supressed long before Constantine came to power. He examines the evidence presented in the Gnostic scriptures and links this to the relevant parts of history and ties the whole thing together in a well thought out analysis. It seems, that though constantine didn't do the axe job on Christianity that the book suggests, the council meeting (during which he was supposed to have done it) was real. However the nature of the meeting was to determine the devinity of Jesus. Up until then there was a division within Christianity, and this meeting was called in an attempt to resolve the matter before Christianity collapsed under the division. Part of Christinity beleived Christ was Mortal, part that he was Divine. There was dispute about his relationship to God - was he equal, lesser, superior or indeed the same god. Pretty much all the things we argue about all the time If Jesus was a God, how could he suffer, how could he die. If he truly was god, did he simply fake his death since a God cannot die? If Jesus was a man, how could he be the son of god, Why would his death have any special meaning, how could he be reborn and why did he claim "I am the Father, He is me"? In short, what a lot of modern Christians simply accept, the early Christians really toiled over. At the end, the decision was that though paradoxical, the only solution was to declare Jesus Both Mortal and God at the same time and this was how it was preached from then on He also acknowledges that the thing with Mary - although unlikely - could have happened, since there are scant few records of the time and most of these are the remnants of scripture still available. He points out that the Dead sea scrolls had bog all to do with it - as claimed in the book, as these deal only with the old testament. He makes a point at the beginning that he does not intend to address matter outside these two subjects - the Grail, Opus Dei etc. and he indeed stays well clear of them. Not that he doesn't have the answers, he's written plenty of books on the subject - I think I might be giving a couple of these a look now. If you can find these lectures, I'd certainly recommend giving them an hour of your time. posted by Marl64 |
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Echelon: fatpie42: Mary Magdelene isn't a prostitute in the Bible. It may be common mistake but it isn't the Churches fault. Unless you can give accounts where the papacy has actively depicted Mary Magdelene as a prostitute then this is, once again, a moot point. Whose fault is it then? Oh yea he covers this too. Apparantly (and I've not checked it out yet), the reason for the confusion is to do with the proximity of two seperate bits. The bit with the feet washing business with the woman of Ill-repute A Bit about Mary Magdelane These two are consecutive in the bible and though seperate are often misread as one thing. Until she was canonised (about 30 years ago) the church never bothered to correct this simple error and so the myth propagated unchallenged. posted by Marl64 |
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1) Constantine DIDN'T choose which gospels were put in the Bible. Other people did. Constantine did not have that authority over the Christian scripture. Besides Constantine would not have been worried about most of the gnostic gospels seeing as he believed in both Apollo and Christ at the same time. 2) Not stopping a misinterpretation of the Bible is not the same as putting it forward oneself. posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: 2) Not stopping a misinterpretation of the Bible is not the same as putting it forward oneself. Aaaah, murdering someone is worse than preventing a murder although one could? Commission > Omission? A belief that eases minds but isn't necessary true and may be one of the roots of evil. posted by knn |
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The time now is 23 May 2012, 07:54 php B.B. |