»90% of US Christians will always vote conservative«
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 knn: And WHY? Because he is against gay marriage or some nonsense like that. Some utterly non-important nonsense compared to an atomic war... That's not entirely fair. It's not just gay marriage - there is also abortion. And while an unborn baby may not count as a person to some, it does to others. I don't see what's so shocking about that. People have their beliefs about things. I've talked to a lot of Christians who voted for Bush, and a good deal of them said this: "I know that Kerry is smarter - I am completely against the war - and I wish I could vote for him, but I simply can't because of his stand on issues like abortion, etc." They would feel guilty to betray their beliefs. I think anyone would. So. I don't see what's so unbelievable about people voting for someone whose basic morals are more in concurrence with their own. posted by Nianza |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsBush, Kerry, Iraq90% of US Christians will always vote conservative |
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 Nianza: So. I don't see what's so unbelievable about people voting for someone whose basic morals are more in concurrence with their own. That's just utter stupidity, more people would die because of the war then because of abortions! Ahem, what was that COMMANDMENT, aaaah, Thou Shall Not Kill? Ah, so does letting hundreds die, hundreds that have actually grown up, lead adult lives, lead school lives and all that, letting them die is a small sacrifice to stop people from having abortions? They're only potential lives, not developed lives that have just been wasted by some little rich boy on a personal vendetta! Ech, morals my arse! 
posted by hungarian kid |
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I see your point, but we're arguing different things. All I'm saying is that voting Conservative isn't as amazing as everyone thinks it is. Yes, the war is awful. People are dying. People will continue to die. And all thanks to Mr. Bush's mess up. Yet, we're already in the war. It's not like we can just back out. In any case, more than a million abortions occur annually in the US. So it's not that small a number. Whatever. Personally, I share your point of view. Though in general I'm not in favor of abortion, I definitely agree that fetuses should be of lesser priority. In any case, I'm not trying to start an argument. All I'm trying to say is that, believe it or not, neither Bush nor his party are trying to flush our country down the drain. It's not as though they're stupid. They were just raised in a different environment. I think everyone will agree that our environment plays a huge factor in who we grow up to be. posted by Nianza |
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Nianza: In any case, I'm not trying to start an argument. This is a debate forum! Nianza: In any case, more than a million abortions occur annually in the US. So it's not that small a number. Links, proof?  Nianza: Though in general I'm not in favor of abortion I don't think they should be made illegal, but people should either be using contraceptives alot more (stop being careless you lazy sexhounds) or think veeeeery carefully befor making the decision to have a baby! But people have different reasons for getting abortions, can't just make it illegal because of moral crazy, crazies! posted by hungarian kid |
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 hungarian kid: Links, proof? HK is a successful masterpiece of knn's training in IMO.   hungarian kid: But people have different reasons for getting abortions, can't just make it illegal because of moral crazy, crazies! Come on Hk, I expected better from you...why isn't killing or stealing allowed? Because they are considered morally wrong. Hello?
posted by nocturnal_anonymous |
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nocturnal_anonymous: Come on Hk, I expected better from you...why isn't killing or stealing allowed? Because they are considered morally wrong. Hello? Pfff, Morals are a religious creation! Stealing and murdering is unethical, but Abortions can be considering not killing if done in a certain stage! If the woman passes that stage, she might aswell give birth and give the baby up for adoption! So a woman who was raped/recieved unwanted sex, a couples whose contraception failed them, they should suffer because people consider it 'moral'?
posted by hungarian kid |
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hungarian kid: Pfff, Morals are a religious creation!
Stealing and murdering is unethical And ethics aren't a religious creation?
Hm, seems to me that these two terms mean the same thing. And to Google as well. define: morals ♣ Quote: Ethics, the codes, values, principles, and customs of a person or society. define: ethics ♣ Quote: the philosophical study of moral values and rules Don't even try to start an argument on abortion, we're veering dangerously off-topic enough...aren't you a bit scared at all that knn will come and boot our posts out? posted by nocturnal_anonymous |
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What I meant by "argument" was "pick a fight". Or, have an "extremely violent discussion". 
Hmm, but anyways, on the subject of abortion, I already agree with you. My stand on abortion: In general, abortion is not okay. Why throw away a person when you could put them up for adoption? Plus, like you said, these unplanned pregnancies are usually a result of poor planning and irresponsibility. Abortion is okay if the mother's life is in danger. In the case of rape, abortion is not necessarily okay. I'm sorry for the raped person, and think that they should be relieved of custody of the child, but I still don't see why they need to abort the baby. So. I think that abortion should be limited, not banned. posted by Nianza |
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 I am right with you on the idea that the mother's life is more important than the babies life. I can't understand people who put the baby's life higher in importance than the mother's. What worse fate could there be than knowing that the baby inside your womb will kill you before/while it is born. On the subject of rape I think you are forgetting that pregnancy is both a severe physical and mental strain on a woman. Pregnancy can be quite dangerous too. Certainly abortion can cause physical and mental strain too, but it is over a much shorter period of time. There is only one person who should choose which of these is the better option and that is the mother. I personally agree with Judith Jarvis Thompson ♣'s ideas on the matter of abortion. These are quite controversial, but I feel that the point they make is that the decision whether to abort or not should always be a matter for the mother to decide, not a court of law. Saying that abortion is wrong because stealing and murder is wrong is a silly argument. If a starving family is forced to steal for survival we would not see it as morally wrong. If a soldier fights in a war against an army led by a Hitler-like figure we would not call them morally wrong. Here we can clearly see that murder and stealing are right or wrong depending on the situation. This is what One-der-man means when he claims that it is an ethical matter not a simply moral one. Ethics are about how you apply your moral principles in each situation. The point here was that the murder ordered by the president caused worse consequences than the allowance of free choice for mothers in the issue of abortion ever could. Still this isn't much of an issue for me since the Conservative party in my country don't see a need to limit abortion any more than it is already. posted by fatpie42 |
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 I haven't really taken the time to read all the posts until now. But I'll respond to a few things, then give my thoughts. "And WHY? Because he is against gay marriage or some nonsense like that. Some utterly non-important nonsense compared to an atomic war... " -knn I'm sorry. Gay marriage had very little to do with Bush winning the election, except for the fact that it was consistant with his unchanging moral value system. Unlike Kerry, he actually stands for something besides just beating the other guy. And, if you really want to know who's doing better in the war... ask those serving in the military. The military is greatly in favor of Bush. "On other topics (Iraq, economy,...) Kerry was leading" If this is even true, it is a prime example of how uneducated economically the common people are. Kerry supported raising the minimum wage, and higher taxes, both of which devastate the economy. Bush has some problems, I grant that. He is not conservative enough for me. However, it is so blatantly obvious which is the better candidate when it comes to, not only morality, but the economy, and war issues. posted by stinkz |
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stinkz: Kerry supported raising the minimum wage, and higher taxes, both of which devastate the economy. The economy cannot run without taxes. A government has to get its money from somewhere. Minimum wages are to preserve the rights of the poorest in a country. I don't see any reason why either of these things would 'devastate an economy'. They sound like far better moral principles than 'banning gay marriages'! posted by fatpie42 |
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 stinkz: Kerry supported raising the minimum wage, and higher taxes, both of which devastate the economy. I think entering a war w/little help and w/o a proper exit plan would be more devestating to the economy than raising taxes or min. wage. 
posted by GP |
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knnknn: I don't see any reason why either of these things would 'devastate an economy'. They sound like far better moral principles than 'banning gay marriages'! Well, this is because you have very little understanding of basic economics. Neither the minimum wage, nor taxes, are moral issues. Raising the minimum wage does nothing but cause inflation, and take jobs away from the poorest class in the country (if you would like me to explain why, I would be glad to give you a macroeconomics crash course). Also, we pay plenty of taxes in this country. More taxes means less money in the hands of workers, thus hurting the economy. This should be obvious. Maybe it's hard to understand, coming from a more socialist country. GPieters: I think entering a war w/little help and w/o a proper exit plan would be more devestating to the economy than raising taxes or min. wage. Actually, historically, war helps the economy greatly. posted by stinkz |
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stinkz: Actually, historically, war helps the economy greatly. In the cases of WWI & II, yes. But we also had a lot of help and support for those wars...therefore, the economy saw a tremedous surge. But, it this war and Vietnam, we went at it vitually alone and have divided support...thus, the economy is seeing a downturn. Don't you recall the situation in the years following Vietnam? Gas shortage, high poverty rates, sky-rocketing unemployment... posted by GP |
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I still think that abortion should be limited more than it is right now. Sure, like you said, it depends on the situation. But I think that if people think they can get an abortion at any time, they'll feel more comfortable about sleeping with whoever they want, whenever they want. Hence, there would be a huge amount of abortions, when, in my opinion, we should keep it to a minimum. Yes, a pregancy can be a huge emotional strain on a woman, but like I've said, I think if people want to have sex, they should be aware of the possibility of having a child. Of course, I know that people make mistakes, and maybe I shouldn't be too harsh in judgement, but still.. Anyways, I know that wasn't your point - your point was about the war vs abortions. I just had to get another word in. posted by Nianza |
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