»Are Good and Evil just human concepts? Or universal laws?«
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 I thought this would be a good question to discuss with my fellow IMOers. I'm curious of the arguements for or against. I hope I worded the question correctly. Basically I'm asking if the ideas of Good and Evil are man made or are Good and Evil universal/divine in nature? Speaking about life in general I see animals in nature don't hold to this concept. They kill for food. But is that evil? Not to them, it is merely for survival. Is it evil for the one being killed? On the other end of the spectrum many animals have a maternal instinct to take care of their young and protect them until they are grown. Is this good? Do the terms Good and Evil pertain to more than just humans? posted by The ONEder Man |
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| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsAre Good and Evil just human concepts? Or universal laws? |
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 The ONEder Man: I thought this would be a good question to discuss with my fellow IMOers. I'm curious or the arguements for or against. I hope I worded the question correctly. Basically I'm asking if the ideas of Good and Evil are man made or are Good and Evil universal/divine in nature?
Speaking about life in general I see animals in nature don't hold to this concept. They kill for food. But is that evil? Not to them, it is merely for survival. Is it evil for the one being killed? On the other end of the spectrum many animals have a maternal instinct to take care of their young and protect them until they are grown. Is this good? Do the terms Good and Evil pertain to more than just humans? Well, I believe the terms "Good" and "Evil" are humans construct created by those in power/with the thirst for power in of control and order. Who tells you what is good and evil at any early age? Parents. Who tells them? Clergy, politicians, their parents, etc. But where do these people get this knowledge of Good and Evil. Holy Texts, messiahs, angels, gods, etc etc. But mankind is easily corruptible, and if the message of Good and Evil is so important why don't these gods, spirits, etc tell us directly? Groups often tweak the standards of Good and Evil to suit their needs. First blacks were evil, subhuman. Women are evil because they can seduce men. Homosexuals are abhorent to god. etc etc I think Good and Evil are created by man for control. To keep order. To keep things they way they want them to be. Now, morals can be a different thing. Many hardcore xians think that secular people can't have morals w/o religion. This is far from the truth. So what are morals exactly? I have seen it argued that we evolved morals as a greater survival trait as we continue to develop into deeper social groups and interdependency. It's definitely not easy to separate moral and good and evil. They are seemingly all intermixed in modern society. I am not sure if I really provided anything substantial there, just trying to help get things going... posted by volonteshiva |
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volonteshiva: Who tells you what is good and evil at any early age?
Parents. Who tells them? Clergy, politicians, their parents, etc. But where do these people get this knowledge of Good and Evil. Holy Texts, messiahs, angels, gods, etc etc. this is true, but for our discussion let us take a hypothetical child who was raised without these influences from birth. a morally steril environment. Would this child be chaotic? animalistic? or kill without thinking twice? Or on the other hand would he be morally sound under his own actions? posted by The ONEder Man |
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 Really morals, good and evil are human creations! What is real is ethics! What is good for you! So animals kill other animals in the wild because its good for them! It's not evil, more animals come around, they are just part of the cycle! So killing people could ethical (e.g. Killing Jews was Ethical for Hitler) but morality says its not right! Morality is more the law we live under (do not kill, steal, molest, covet your neighbours wife etc.) because it means we can live in a world without having to worry about people killing us etc. Ofcourse we can still be killed but the consequences of breaking morality probably stop alot of people from doing these things! But some morals are stupid so you should just remember ethics and 'do unto others as you would want them to do unto you!' (  I probably phrased that wrong but you all know what I mean).   posted by hungarian kid |
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hungarian kid: Morality is more the law we live under (do not kill, steal, molest, covet your neighbours wife etc.) because it means we can live in a world without having to worry about people killing us etc. so that goes along the same line of questioning. If these laws were not in place, would the world be chaotic? or would a majority find harmony anyway and be civil and only those same people that cause the 'evil' still commit such acts? posted by The ONEder Man |
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Well ethics would take into place! There would be wild people but the people who do not wish for violence, killing etc. would make their own towns and cities away from the people with little care for others! There will always be different views on life, different ethics and different people! Without morals and laws, the quiet people with no wish for killing or being killed would travel far from the wild people to gain there serenity! Or maybe not, but you know what I mean! posted by hungarian kid |
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The ONEder Man: hungarian kid: Morality is more the law we live under (do not kill, steal, molest, covet your neighbours wife etc.) because it means we can live in a world without having to worry about people killing us etc. so that goes along the same line of questioning. If these laws were not in place, would the world be chaotic? or would a majority find harmony anyway and be civil and only those same people that cause the 'evil' still commit such acts? Now this is a question where observing the past is very benefitial. Tribes/groups/small bands of people were indeed capable of living in harmony w/o lots of laws and rules and controlling concepts of good and evil. But these small groups susceptible to bands of barbarians and ransackers. I think many people accepted civilizations because they were safer there. There is plenty of violence today and mass atrocities but in xyz location in much of the world, normal people can live out their lives in good health and safety. This has not been the case in the past. People studying the concept of ethics and morality have debated for years the concept of the isolated child. Keep a kid alone or 2 kids together for their whole lives and see what's different than society. The problem is that these 2 kids may live out their lives in harmony. But take these 2 kids over here, and they may kill each other eventually. Or one kid gets sick and it taints the view of life for the other kid. It's hard to generalize what our whole species is like from a small isolated subset, because humans vary to so much. Now I think w/ the right education and ideal set, improving yourself and the world around you, you can have a small to medium sized group that is harmonious. However it gets alot more complex when the population size grows large. It can take only one twisted individual to affect the whole group. posted by volonteshiva |
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hungarian kid: Without morals and laws, the quiet people with no wish for killing or being killed would travel far from the wild people to gain there serenity! Or maybe not, but you know what I mean! Indeed this has been done many a time in human history. Unfortunately most of the habitable places on this planet are taken. People can't go anywhere else to form a utopia. Not until we can colonize other planets at least... posted by volonteshiva |
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The ONEder Man: volonteshiva: Who tells you what is good and evil at any early age?
Parents. Who tells them? Clergy, politicians, their parents, etc. But where do these people get this knowledge of Good and Evil. Holy Texts, messiahs, angels, gods, etc etc. this is true, but for our discussion let us take a hypothetical child who was raised without these influences from birth. a morally steril environment. Would this child be chaotic? animalistic? or kill without thinking twice? Or on the other hand would he be morally sound under his own actions? I think you would have one kid be this way and another kid be that way. One would be animalistic, another would be calm. Genetics are the base the determine who we will be. Some just have bad genes. Now the thing that separates us is our consciousness, our concept of personhood, our ability to ponder over the universe. These things work move us beyond our animalist past, however that is a part of us, and is apart of our brains, and it still with us. So no, I don't think that kids left in isolation will exhibit the definition of morality. Other than genetics, our teaching/experience/learning abilities from ancestors is what works to define our morality. The more moral your environment is, the more the next generation will be. posted by volonteshiva |
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volonteshiva: Genetics are the base the determine who we will be. Some just have bad genes. yes this is my entire arguement. you admit it yourself, some just have bad genes, this is before environment, morals, authority figures even have a chance to emerge in this person's life. if genetics are the base on how a person will ultimately act, is that not either inharently good or inharently evil? posted by The ONEder Man |
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The ONEder Man: volonteshiva: Genetics are the base the determine who we will be. Some just have bad genes. yes this is my entire arguement. you admit it yourself, some just have bad genes, this is before environment, morals, authority figures even have a chance to emerge in this person's life. if genetics are the base on how a person will ultimately act, is that not either inharently good or inharently evil? genetics can determine someone's propensity for agression or restlessness. There person is likely to be violent unless the environment he is raised in teaches him control and meditation. However, some kid good could be a peaceful, quiet person and then watches someone butcher his parents and then the kids become violent as he grows up. Genetics and environment are nearly equal on the average for humanity in determining a person's ethics/morals. i.e. if you are wired for peace, and grow up learning peace, you are going to most likely be peaceful. I still don't like the terms good and evil being tied to genetics. If a person is born w/ aggressive personality in their genetics but you use genetic engineering to weed that out of them, has science then made that person good? I think you can be a dark person based on your genetics or your environment. Perhaps some day we can work to weed out some of the darkness at birth in someone w/ twisted mental genetics. Changes in environment are seemingly a much more difficult process to correct as demonstrated by our history. I think it is really going to take us nearly destroying ourselves or wiping out a large portion of our population before we socially change. Or perhaps it will just take a thousand more years of slow progress. posted by volonteshiva |
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 the difference between good and evil simply depends on your point of view. is porn evil? some will say yes, others will say no, and still some will not have an opinion. laws are in place to control it, limit it (certain kinds, age limitations), and there are people who break these laws and enjoy child porn. are they evil? we'll say yes because of the laws and what we have learned and grown used to. but the romans often had "encounters" with young boys. were they evil? then some will say that these people who view child porn have a brain disorder, does this now mean that homosexuals are simply suffering from a brain disorder because of their sexual preference? (this was just an example) another one: speeding. are speeders "bad"? the laws are in place to "protect" us. whether it be from the bad man driving at 100mph in a neighborhood filled with kids or the bad man who wants to date your 14 year old daughter. i think its strange that in the US there is supposed to be a separation of church and state...but a lot of laws are taken from religious teachings. so in a way, we are still influenced by religion. we are being told what is and is not moral/right/wrong/good/bad.--ahem, gay marriage. The ONEder Man: If these laws were not in place, would the world be chaotic? or would a majority find harmony anyway and be civil and only those same people that cause the 'evil' still commit such acts? as said earlier, the people who are less violent and chaotic would form their own towns away from the more chaotic people. but...especially in this day and age, once they were in their own towns they would still form some type of laws or underlying rules to govern them, to keep it a "civil" town. ever seen the movie they broke away from civilization to form their own away from the horrors and evils of the world. they still had rules to follow, laws that forbid them from leaving the town for one. private "police" to patrol their perimeter to keep people out. its a good movie. --- as far as genetics taking the blame for "evil" people...what would you call a person who has bad genes/brain disorder who just doesnt have the ability to understand that murder is wrong? are they evil? is it their fault? i think it is a little bit of both, genetics and environment. but there is no real way to know. unless we can erase who we have become through our many life experiences, go back in time, and go through a different environment and upbringing. or have two cloned identical people and bring them up in two different worlds...but that would be viewed as an "evil" experiment by the masses. posted by allone |
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 I don't subscribe to the idea that good and evil are made up in the same way that I don't subscribe to the idea that 'beauty' is made up. It's a very healthy instinct to label things as good, bad, beautiful or ugly. However, the method of labelling may differ between individuals and sometimes they will coincide and sometimes they will not. Evil is in the eye of the beholder  posted by fatpie42 |
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allone: is porn evil? Typical internet discussion then. lol! posted by fatpie42 |
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 allone: the difference between good and evil simply depends on your point of view. Exactly. Just think of 9/11. There is cause and effect. And there is OPINION (= good, evil, shame, failure...) about the cause and about the effect. posted by knn |
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The time now is 31 July 2010, 09:23 php B.B. |