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knn: 4thedefender: volonteshiva: Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. just as you don't understand anything about christians, christianity, and the american right. this is not what they believe, and you're insults of religious people merely demonstrate your own ignorance, bigotry, and petty, irrational hate. If hate against Christians is irrational, then love towards Christians is, too. Is there anything Christians did to deserve appreciation? I can name a few things Christians did to deserve hate. this is what I am talking about. you see only the negative. you forget about all the good things and focus only on the bad. you are ignoring the fact that the evils you are associating with christians are in direct violation of christianity. you are attacking the people, not the religion. that's no different than blaming the blacks for all the crime, and the jews for all the poverty. it is irrational and illogical. posted by fourthedfender |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsBush, Kerry, IraqIs the USA losing the separation between church and state? |
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[quote="fatpie42"] 4thedefenderr: but there is more to it than that. it has becom a war on christianity (and to a lesser extent, judaism) every time something even slightly christian comes near a public place, aclu and other anti-religious thugs send in the lawyers and try to prevent people from expressing their own religous beliefs. . Quote: That's not true though. Everything is dictated by Christianity in America! As I recall, you do not live in America. How the hell would you know? Quote: "in God We Trust" is written on money and police cars. that’s it? Come on! That’s just something that the aclu hasn’t been able to change yet. And I’ve never seen “in god we trust” on cop car around here Quote: All the television presenters, comedians, rock stars and even politicians will say "God Bless America!" oooooh, as if that means anything. In fact, many of those famous people refuse to do so. Quote: No one is allowed to be taught about other religions in schools. This has always been true even before prayer was taken out of school, has it not? also untrue. While Christianity is effectively banned from most public schools (to the point that at the “holiday celebration” people can get in trouble for dressing up as santa, or playing Christmas related music (even if it is non-religious in nature and even instrumental) on the other hand, they have no problem pushing other religions. As I pointed out earlier, one school actually forced students to practice Islam for a week, or they would not be allowed to graduate. The schools have been the front lines in the war on religion, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either ling or just blind. Quote: The president is chosen based on 'how good a Christian' he is. most Christians share common values and a common worldview. Are those not legitimate issues when selecting a leader? It sure as hell beats “but what will the other countries think?” and “who do the celebrities like?” Quote: Gay marriage is seen as a major political issue. the Christians didn’t make that an issue. The gay activists made that an issue. And you know what, when politicians openly violate the law, and judges start pulling unwritten rules of the constitution out of their asses, all for political purposes, you better believe that’s gonna be a big issue. Quote: And you are trying to tell me that Christianity is suppressed in America? yes, in many places it is. when wearing a cross can get you fired, and saying a prayer in public is a crime, religious freedom is in danger. posted by fourthedefender |
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volonteshiva: 4thedefender: the point is, we are supposed to be allowed to practice our own religions freely, both privately AND publicly, and when the government starts getting in the way of our right to do so, it is an attack on the very principles this nation was founded on. So what happens when religious groups work to impose their religious beliefs upon others? The prime US example is the American Indians. They were not allowed to practice how they wanted in many areas. Xianity was forced on them, oftentimes violently. Which of course, would be illegal, immoral, and in violation of their rights. It’s not one or the other here. You don’t have to suppress all religion in order to prevent the development of an oppressive theocracy. We are all supposed to have the basic freedom to practice and express our own religious beliefs. Look at it this way. If you are a democrat in a highly republican area, or a republican in a highly democrat area your opinion is the minority. Does that mean people should not be allowed to express political beliefs, because it could offend those with opposing points of view? Of course not, that would be stupid and violate our rights. So why should we not be allowed to express our religious beliefs freely? That’s freedom. That’s why it’s in the first amendment. Quote: I truly don't have a problem with religion being practice in private. That is your right, your business. Also, if someone wants to pray in the park, I am not going to go up to them and tell them to get the hell out of the park. Quote: What I have a problem with is that much of xianity believes it is the only religion with merit. It shows no respect for other and much older religions than itself. But with that said, I do indeed believe that religion should be able to be freely practice, including xianity. However, I don't believe religion should dictate social policy for a country. ok, that’s a 2 parter: first, chirstianity has every right to believe it is the one correct religion. Why shouldn’t it? It is illogical to expect otherwise. Christianity says there is only one god. That throws out any other religions that proclaim other gods. Any religion that disagrees with christianit, cannot be right if Christianity is right. To put it another way, if you believe you are right about a particular issue, then you must also believe that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong about that particular issue. If you believe Bigfoot shot jfk, then you must believe that anyone who says “Bigfoot didn’t shoot jfk” is wrong. The same goes for religion. If your religion really is the right one, any religion that disagrees must be wrong Second, if the majority of the people in a country are religious, and have specific views on social issues, then they have every right to base their actions on those views. That’s how it works in a democracy (and in a democratic republic, such as America) if you don’t like majority rule, your problem shouldn’t be with Christianity, it is really with democracy. posted by fourthedefender |
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volonteshiva: 4thedefender: volonteshiva: Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. just as you don't understand anything about christians, christianity, and the american right. this is not what they believe, and you're insults of religious people merely demonstrate your own ignorance, bigotry, and petty, irrational hate. Finally someone that directly attacks me! Wonderful! I do understand Xianity, specifically Baptist Xianty since I was surrounded by it from birth to 16. My feelings and beliefs now stem from my rebellion against that upbringing but also as I have grown older, my own, independent philosophical ideals have grown and expanded as I learned and observed more about the world and indeed my views are contrary to much of Xian doctrine. I will not challenge you on your personal beliefs. I do not know what they are exactly, or what it was that you are rebelling against. You have every right to choose your own path. That’s what freedom is all about. In fact, faith without choice is meaningless. Quote: Now, indeed not all xians believe as I had said. However, there is an appreciable percentage that do. I have heard it in person and on tv many times. Show me what percentage of xians DON'T believe we are in the problems we are in in this country in part due to our moving away from the xian God. I don't believe that number will be that large. I would agree that most xians in this country are somewhat moderate and I have heard this said a number of places. However, many the religious people in power today are not moderate. i.e. John Ashcroft. the problem is, what is a moderate? If you compare the Christian community with the way it is so often portrayed, as a bunch of extremist hypocritical nutjob fascists, than yes, they are virtually all moderates. But if you compare them with what those critics would demand of them, the vast majority are not moderates. It’s all a matter of definition. And you know what, the vast majority of Christians do believe that many of the problems facing America today are caused or exacerbated by the secularization of America. They do not believe that 9/11 or terrorism is caused by this, but the social problems and the issues involving values are seen as being directly related to a move away from Christianity and Christian values. Agree or disagree, that is not an extremist idea. And why should they have to be moderate anyway? The secularists sure as hell don’t seem to feel pressured to be moderate. Why should the Christians? Isn’t that inherently dishonest? Shouldn’t we all be faithful to our beliefs, whether they are “moderate” or not? Quote: You say my hate is irrational. Indeed, I have not suffered at the hands of Catholic policies as American Indians have, and I was not forced into slavery by public practicing xians. So compared to these groups, my dislike doesn't compare. But of course this is a simplistic answer. I am sure there are some great non-religious ideals supporting these two actions. I happen to be Cherokee, does that mean I should hate the Christians? Or should I hate the white man? Should I hate the other tribes that were constantly fighting with my own? No. I hate some of things the church has done, as I hate the actions of many people and organizations. But we must be careful not let ourselves become consumed by our hatred. When you are no longer hating the evil that has been done, and instead hate all those who you associate with that evil, you cannot take the moral high ground, for you have corrupted yourself. If you are against the war in iraq, does that mean you must hate America, and then all Americans? Does hating the actions of saddam and his regime mean you must hate iraq and all the Iraqis? If not, then why should the actions of certain members of the church (in violation of the religion they claim to serve) justify your hatred of Christianity and Christians? 4thedefender: Quote: Except for the religious powerful/rich, who actually wants the Bible to control their lives again like in the past century and before? HA! that's classic. you're actually surprised that christians want to live by there beliefs? Quote: and thanks for pointing out (in your own distorted, condescending, hate-filled way) that the seperation of church and state did not exist before the supreme court invented it. Quote: I don't doubt that the founding fathers were religious supporters and that sep of church and state then doesn't mean what it does now. But that doesn't mean they were 100% and that what was the norm then is fully applicable now. Numbers of the founding fathers had slaves and really didn't see their wives as equals. They weren't perfect and shouldn't be seen as so. of course they weren’t. but we are talking about the constitution here. Slavery was more or less, left out of the constitution, but it was not banned from the start (as many wanted) because it was an issue that couldn’t be resolved at the time, and they thought it was more important to establish a stable nation than wait for a perfect one. Now, did they just decide that slavery was unconstitutional? No! they banned it through legislation, not judicial activism. The constitution may need a tune up from time to time, but it is not the job of judges to fix it. That puts way too much power into the hands of a few individuals. If you want to fix things, do it the right, legal way. Otherwise, there is no point to having a constitution at all. Quote: You also seem to leave out of all your comments about xianity that it has not been kind or civil to those that don't ascribe to it's beliefs in the past. Especially for the centuries that it has a direct say in social/military policies. There are plenty of reasons to dislike the actions of xians in the past and today. you must separate, Christians (who are people) from Christianity (which is a belief system). Christians do bad things, because they are people, and people do bad things. These bad things are a violation of the teachings of Christianity. To say Christianity and all Christians are bad because of what some people have done, is idiotic. Do you hate the Germans? Look what they did to the Jews. Or did the Jews have it coming for all the things they have done? Are all Mexicans drug dealers? Are all democrats whiny tree hugging anti-american elitists? Are my people all alcoholic idiots who let themselves get suckered out of their land by the white man? No! these kinds of generalizations are idiotic and demeaning to all of us. We must treat people as individuals, not members of the group. To do otherwise is to live in bigotry and ignorance. posted by fourthedefender |
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It looks like this guy may have overwhelmed you all. Well... here are my thoughts. knnknn: The Supreme Court of the US declared: Thomas Jefferson knew that the Supreme Court was gunna be the biggest problem with our government system. The power to interpret the constitution has, unfortunately, become the power to change the constitution. knnknn: Hey, I thought US was founded on the slaughtering of Indians... Wait, must have been another country. Man, have you ever read a historical document? I've read a couple letters written by Christopher Columbus. The purpose was, by no means, to slaughter indians, though most of the tribes they encountered were savage ones. In the letter he wrote of a few of the tribes who were peace-loving, with whom they attempted to get along with, and even present the gospel to. fatpie42: No one is allowed to be taught about other religions in schools. This has always been true even before prayer was taken out of school, has it not? Are you serious? Not even close. Please. Mentioning the name Jesus in a public school, except as an exclamation, will get you in trouble. fatpie42: And you are trying to tell me that Christianity is suppressed in America? Very much so! Are you blind? Oh wait, you don't live here. Nevermind. Gosh, atheists are so pompous. Every one of you think that your secularism is somehow the "default" religion, which is the only one that's OK to teach in schools. I'm so sick of it. Your religion causes so much more corruption in America than Christianity ever has. I seriously hope we go back to having private schools, which use the Bible as a primary teaching device. posted by stinkz |
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stinkz: Your religion causes so much more corruption in America than Christianity ever has. So what would be better if Christianity was increased in the US or worldwide? posted by knn |
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knn: stinkz: Your religion causes so much more corruption in America than Christianity ever has. So what would be better if Christianity was increased in the US or worldwide? Indeed, how was the world better when xianity reigned supreme over the past several centuries? The things that you call corruption that happen today, have continually occured in the past, they were just repressed and kept out of the public eye. well, what exactly are you referring to when you say corruption? Why do church and state together work better? stinkz: I seriously hope we go back to having private schools, which use the Bible as a primary teaching device. That is a horrible idea. Expose kids to religion fine, but don't make the Bible the primary source. If you want to expose kids to religion in school, then you should expose them to all religions and let them sort it out. Why just teach the xianity? stinkz: knn: :
Hey, I thought US was founded on the slaughtering of Indians... Wait, must have been another country. Man, have you ever read a historical document? I've read a couple letters written by Christopher Columbus. The purpose was, by no means, to slaughter indians, though most of the tribes they encountered were savage ones. In the letter he wrote of a few of the tribes who were peace-loving, with whom they attempted to get along with, and even present the gospel to. So have you ever read a historical document after 1492-1500? "US founded on slaughtering of Indians" is more about the 1800s and on when we began migrating west past the Mississippi and taking over all the lands of Indians and leaving death and destruction in our wake. Plus in the 20th century, xianity wasn't "presented" to many Indian tribes, it was forced upon them. It was seen as something to civilize them. These are reasons why the church should not be in control of the state. People should not have a particular religion forced upon them. You say that atheism is forced upon people today. Fine. I can see that to some degree. But much of it really is a backlash against centuries of xian control. posted by volonteshiva |
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volunteshiva: Expose kids to religion fine, but don't make the Bible the primary source. Yes, we very much should have the Bible as the primary source. I see no problem with promoting a rational religion (Christianity) over an irrational one (materialism). volunteshiva: If you want to expose kids to religion in school, then you should expose them to all religions and let them sort it out. No, that is ridiculous. Exposing kids to all the irrational religions out there, is practically choosing atheism for them. And, besides, that's pretty much how it is, now. All the religions are taught, but with an atheist bias. I say, if there has to be a bias towards one particular religion, Christianity over materialism, anyday. Being the sinful creatures they are, children will be prone to rejecting it, as they always are. However, as Plato well knew, those who stand outside real morality cannot fully understand it. So, bringing up children as materialists is practically choosing for them. People, you need to understand. The whole Church and State issue is bogus. It is used as merely a way for atheists to get rid of Christianity whenever they don't want to see it. I'm tired of seeing irrational atheism! The only thing that should be forbidden is the state regulating religion, which is what we see now. That, and there shouldn't be a religious test to get into office. These are the only things mentioned in the Constitution. posted by stinkz |
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volunteshiva: If you want to expose kids to religion in school, then you should expose them to all religions and let them sort it out. No, that is ridiculous. Exposing kids to all the irrational religions out there, is practically choosing atheism for them. And, besides, that's pretty much how it is, now. All the religions are taught, but with an atheist bias. [/quote] I was of the impression that Americans did not have Religious Studies lessons because it was illegal. (Do remember that I don't live in America. I thought all police cars had "In God We Trust" written on them because they do in the movie "Terminator") I was taught all religions with a major bias towards Christianity. It was not until doing more intense studies in religion that I came across Nietzsche. This was the first time I'd been taught of atheism as a religion rather than "a souless existence". posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: I was of the impression that Americans did not have Religious Studies lessons because it was illegal. World religions is general education course here at this university. posted by stinkz |
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What about school? posted by fatpie42 |
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stinkz: Being the sinful creatures they are, children will be prone to rejecting it Oha. Sounds pedophile. posted by knn |
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stinkz: Exposing kids to all the irrational religions out there, is practically choosing atheism for them. You have to see it that way: Exposing humanity for 2000 years (2000 years) to Christianity while de facto NOTHING happened (= no Jesus since 2000 years) makes them atheists. Christianity itself makes it's own atheists. What if I told you that Jesus won't return within the next 7500 years? Would you still be Christian? I think that most of the attraction that Christianity has is based on the constant hammering that "Jesus is about to come, we live in the end times". The country is well-advised to leave such religious concept aside and concentrate on his own issues. After all putting Christians everywhere in the government means debts, debts, debts... since the believe that the end is near anyway OR that whatever they do is guided by a higher power. posted by knn |
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Christians had 2000 years to rule countries. The world deserves a break. Oh, and if you want to know how a truly Christian ruled country looks like: See Muslim countries. There is not much difference between Islam and Christianity. The brutality is smoldering within the Christian community, as is proven by the fact that Christians are known for their violence thruout the times and their pro-gun attitudes. They just wait for the moment where they can torture witches (or homosexuals) again. Their god is a god of strength and murder anyway, so no wonder they are brutal. posted by knn |
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knn: What if I told you that Jesus won't return within the next 7500 years? Neither the day, nor the hour, has ever been, to my knowledge, a reason for rejecting or accepting Christianity. knn: whatever they do is guided by a higher power. Enough of the anti-Bush propaganda. Thank you. knn: Christians had 2000 years to rule countries. The world deserves a break. I'm not saying that Christianity should rule the world. Everyone should have a choice about what to believe, always... and this is consistant with Christian values. Having Christians in power, who actually believe, and don't merely profess to believe because it helps them climb the political ladder, is most definitely a good thing. They will have steadfast, unflinching values, which do not change due to popular opinion. The constant comparison of Christianity in the American government system with Roman Catholicism is quite old, and is most certainly groundless. The right to freedom of religion is already enough to stop the government from forcing citizens, or political office holders, from believing a certain way. People don't understand, if it weren't for the Christian (or at the very least, Deist) ideals of our founding fathers, our country would not be so great. They knew man's corruption, and recognized the need for a truthful standard to hold even the government accountable to (the Constitution). People also don't understand that, without the presupposition of an universal moral law, democracy is impossible. posted by stinkz |
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The time now is 9 January 2009, 22:34 php B.B. |