»Is the USA losing the separation between church and state?«
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 You must be registered to vote. It's more than obvious that during this year's election, religion played a crucial role in allowing conservative George W. Bush to remain in the Oval Office for another term. It's important to sit down and think if the USA is losing the separation between church and state, vital for pluralism and peaceful living. History shows us that a "marriage" between politics and religion has ended in disaster. Calvin's Geneve and the Taliban's Afghanistan come to mind. posted by Echelon |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsBush, Kerry, IraqIs the USA losing the separation between church and state? |
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 Echelon: You must be registered to vote.
It's more than obvious that during this year's election, religion played a crucial role in allowing conservative George W. Bush to remain in the Oval Office for another term. It's important to sit down and think if the USA is losing the separation between church and state, vital for pluralism and peaceful living. History shows us that a "marriage" between politics and religion has ended in disaster. Calvin's Geneve and the Taliban's Afghanistan come to mind. Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. Except for the religious powerful/rich, who actually wants the Bible to control their lives again like in the past century and before? posted by volonteshiva |
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 Did it ever HAVE separation of Church and state? posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: Did it ever HAVE separation of Church and state? no. the seperation of church and state (as it is thought of today) is a lie. it was based on willful misinterpretation of the constitution by the supreme court. the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." the basic idea here, is to prevent the establishment of a state church, like that in england at the time. it was all about preventing religious persecution. it was never meant to be a restraining order against religion. this is quite obvious, when you consider that it took nearly 2 centuries to find this seperation of church and state. (it seems somewhat ironic that the supreme court still opens every session with a prayer.) when asked why the founding fathers did allowed religious activity within the problem is, the "seperation of church and state" is a distortion of the constitution. it is all about freedom FROM religion, rather than freedom OF religion. it does the very thing the first amendment is supposed to prevent; the violation of the peoples' right to believe and worship as they see fit. it seeks to impose secularism on the people, which is no different than imposing christianity or islam or taoism or any other belief system. but there is more to it than that. it has becom a war on christianity (and to a lesser extent, judaism) every time something even slightly christian comes near a public place, aclu and other anti-religious thugs send in the lawyers and try to prevent people from expressing their own religous beliefs. it has become absolutely absurd. now, a teacher cannot teach the declaration of independance in california, because it mentions god. of course, they can still REQUIRE kids to to practice islam (including prayers to allah) which is clearly a violation of the first amenment, as it is actually forcing children to practice a religion. apparently they have yet to find that seperation of church and mosque. the point is, we are supposed to be allowed to practice our own religions freely, both privately AND publicly, and when the government starts getting in the way of our right to do so, it is an attack on the very principles this nation was founded on. posted by 4thedefender |
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volonteshiva: Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. just as you don't understand anything about christians, christianity, and the american right. this is not what they believe, and you're insults of religious people merely demonstrate your own ignorance, bigotry, and petty, irrational hate. Quote: Except for the religious powerful/rich, who actually wants the Bible to control their lives again like in the past century and before? HA! that's classic. you're actually surprised that christians want to live by there beliefs? and thanks for pointing out (in your own distorted, condescending, hate-filled way) that the seperation of church and state did not exist before the supreme court invented it. posted by 4thedefender |
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Echelon: You must be registered to vote.
It's more than obvious that during this year's election, religion played a crucial role in allowing conservative George W. Bush to remain in the Oval Office for another term. It's important to sit down and think if the USA is losing the separation between church and state, vital for pluralism and peaceful living. History shows us that a "marriage" between politics and religion has ended in disaster. Calvin's Geneve and the Taliban's Afghanistan come to mind. oh and I suppose nazi germany and the soviets were all happy teddi bears and rainbows. what history show us is that all societies are inherently flawed and that man is brutal animal that will do the most horrible things imaginable whenever the possibility presents itself. america has been a christian nation from the begining. before the courts invented the seperation of church and state, religion and politics had been inseperable. in fact, the very ideas this nation was founded on, freedom, justice, equality, they were all derived from religious beliefs. if you were to say to the founding fathers that they must remove religion from politics, they would laugh in your face. it would be like saying, you must remove beliefs, principles, world view, morals, and ideals from politics. now, you must also keep in mind, it isnt one or the other. it isnt, the government must purge religion from public life, or it must force everyone to repent or die. the founders wanted neither. remember, these men were coming from a system where the government did impose one church on the people. they did not want to see that return. and they did not want to see religion banned either. all they wanted was to protect the free excercise of religion. that's it. they didn't want to force anyone to bow down and pray to allah, nor did the want to ban people from mentioning god in public. posted by 4thedefender |
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 4thedefenderr: in fact, the very ideas this nation was founded on, freedom, justice, equality, they were all derived from religious beliefs. Hey, I thought US was founded on the slaughtering of Indians... Wait, must have been another country. posted by knn |
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 Quote: Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.
Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity and Quote: Certainly many of the early immigrants to the New World came for religious reasons - often to escape persecution. However, they were not interested in religious freedom for anyone other than themselves, and often turned around and persecuted others who had slightly different viewpoints. posted by knn |
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4thedefenderr: no.
the seperation of church and state (as it is thought of today) is a lie. it was based on willful misinterpretation of the constitution by the supreme court. The Supreme Court of the US declared: Quote: In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, “The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.” That's pretty clear. Please start a new topic arguing why this is a misinterpretation of the constitution. posted by knn |
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4thedefender: volonteshiva: Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. just as you don't understand anything about christians, christianity, and the american right. this is not what they believe, and you're insults of religious people merely demonstrate your own ignorance, bigotry, and petty, irrational hate. If hate against Christians is irrational, then love towards Christians is, too. Is there anything Christians did to deserve appreciation? I can name a few things Christians did to deserve hate. posted by knn |
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4thedefenderr: but there is more to it than that. it has becom a war on christianity (and to a lesser extent, judaism) every time something even slightly christian comes near a public place, aclu and other anti-religious thugs send in the lawyers and try to prevent people from expressing their own religous beliefs. . That's not true though. Everything is dictated by Christianity in America! "in God We Trust" is written on money and police cars. All the television presenters, comedians, rock stars and even politicians will say "God Bless America!" No one is allowed to be taught about other religions in schools. This has always been true even before prayer was taken out of school, has it not? The president is chosen based on 'how good a Christian' he is. Gay marriage is seen as a major political issue. And you are trying to tell me that Christianity is suppressed in America? posted by fatpie42 |
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4thedefender: the point is, we are supposed to be allowed to practice our own religions freely, both privately AND publicly, and when the government starts getting in the way of our right to do so, it is an attack on the very principles this nation was founded on. So what happens when religious groups work to impose their religious beliefs upon others? The prime US example is the American Indians. They were not allowed to practice how they wanted in many areas. Xianity was forced on them, oftentimes violently. I truly don't have a problem with religion being practice in private. That is your right, your business. Also, if someone wants to pray in the park, I am not going to go up to them and tell them to get the hell out of the park. What I have a problem with is that much of xianity believes it is the only religion with merit. It shows no respect for other and much older religions than itself. But with that said, I do indeed believe that religion should be able to be freely practice, including xianity. However, I don't believe religion should dictate social policy for a country. posted by volonteshiva |
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4thedefender: volonteshiva: Well, according to these religious geniuses that voted for Bush on religious grounds, getting away from the xian God is what has brought this country down and caused 9/11 and resulted in a host of other things they don't understand anything about. just as you don't understand anything about christians, christianity, and the american right. this is not what they believe, and you're insults of religious people merely demonstrate your own ignorance, bigotry, and petty, irrational hate. Finally someone that directly attacks me! Wonderful! I do understand Xianity, specifically Baptist Xianty since I was surrounded by it from birth to 16. My feelings and beliefs now stem from my rebellion against that upbringing but also as I have grown older, my own, independent philosophical ideals have grown and expanded as I learned and observed more about the world and indeed my views are contrary to much of Xian doctrine. Now, indeed not all xians believe as I had said. However, there is an appreciable percentage that do. I have heard it in person and on tv many times. Show me what percentage of xians DON'T believe we are in the problems we are in in this country in part due to our moving away from the xian God. I don't believe that number will be that large. I would agree that most xians in this country are somewhat moderate and I have heard this said a number of places. However, many the religious people in power today are not moderate. i.e. John Ashcroft. You say my hate is irrational. Indeed, I have not suffered at the hands of Catholic policies as American Indians have, and I was not forced into slavery by public practicing xians. So compared to these groups, my dislike doesn't compare. But of course this is a simplistic answer. I am sure there are some great non-religious ideals supporting these two actions. 4thedefender: Quote: Except for the religious powerful/rich, who actually wants the Bible to control their lives again like in the past century and before? HA! that's classic. you're actually surprised that christians want to live by there beliefs? and thanks for pointing out (in your own distorted, condescending, hate-filled way) that the seperation of church and state did not exist before the supreme court invented it. I don't doubt that the founding fathers were religious supporters and that sep of church and state then doesn't mean what it does now. But that doesn't mean they were 100% and that what was the norm then is fully applicable now. Numbers of the founding fathers had slaves and really didn't see their wives as equals. They weren't perfect and shouldn't be seen as so. You also seem to leave out of all your comments about xianity that it has not been kind or civil to those that don't ascribe to it's beliefs in the past. Especially for the centuries that it has a direct say in social/military policies. There are plenty of reasons to dislike the actions of xians in the past and today. posted by volonteshiva |
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Just Because of the actions of one crazy evangelical christian, askin god when he should press the big RED BUTTON you should'nt blame an entire group of people. You can't blame the entire Muslin population of the world for what Osama Binladen did. I understand that is easy to blame everyone for the actions of one person, it's natural to act that way we're only human. KRONK! AtoMoBot  posted by AtoMoBoT |
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knn: 4thedefenderr: in fact, the very ideas this nation was founded on, freedom, justice, equality, they were all derived from religious beliefs. Hey, I thought US was founded on the slaughtering of Indians... Wait, must have been another country. you're right, it was the british who were responsible for that. america had nothing to do with that. now, if you want to talk about the native americans, then that would be a different story since I know that's what you meant, allow me to respond. I know all too well what the europeans did to the native peoples. I happen to be cherokee. I am also a proud american. I am deeply insulted by your attempt to single out america for what happened to my people. america didn't start that. the europeans came over and started slaughtering and oppressing, long before america was founded. and it should be no surprise, they had plenty of practice. it's all they've been doing since they first figured out how to start fires and throw rocks. just look at how they have treated the jews! it was europe that was founded on slaughter and slavery, so don't pull this shit about america being so nasty. posted by fourthedefender |
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