|
|||
|
Tiefling: That could be used to repress any social, political, or racial group. Right. See posts to Nico. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsIs homosexuality immoral? |
|
|||
|
fatpie42: The Bible gives us a traditional morality. Well, off to a bad start. The Bible doesn't "give us" traditional morality. It is merely a part of it. fatpie: Why should we accept the traditional morality?
Because it is written in the Bible. Wrong again. We should accept traditional morality because, without it, we have no basis for a belief in rational morality at all. Nowhere have I stated either of your two "proofs" of my logical circle. Your method of argument is insane. You tell me what I believe, then blame me for believing it. THAT is far more circular than anything I have said. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
Exile: But I am sick of people like stinkz who judge others because of stupid primitive belief systems. You have absolutely NOTHING on which to base your claim that certain portions of belief systems are "primitive," unless by "primitive" you mean "previous to our particular belief system." And, if you do mean that, then there is no reason to believe that our morals are any better than the ones you label "primitive." You judge traditional morality based on your half morality, which is merely a portion of the traditional morality you reject. Basically, you reject morality based on what you have been taught. So, whos brainwashed: the guy who trusts rational morality, or the guy who believes what he has been told by those pushing secular dogma? Exile: And intolerance, which is almost exclusively based on ignorance, is the one poison that has caused a hell of a lot of misery in the past. There should be no rule but one: do not harm others. As I have explained before, the moral you love (probably because it is the one that benefits you most at the moment), "tolerance" comes from the same source as all other morals. Why are we to accept one maxim above all the others? Give me one rational reason to accept your morality over humanity's. You can't. Exile: But I think that people like him are dangerous. It is not a far step from false information to intolerant behaviour, and not a far step from intolerant behaviour to outright violence There you go, spewing the same nonsense as knn. Gosh you people are brainwashed. First off, my information is not false. Secondly, it discourages intolerant behaviour. And lastly, unlike your belief system, mine actually has a basis. Exile: He even quotes the Nazi empire, whose views he defends unknowingly. What the Nazi's were doing was stepping outside the bounds of Traditional Morality and forming their own partial morality. For instance, they redefined "Justice" as "what is in the interest of the Third Reich." Their problem was, in fact, much like your own. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
stinkz: What the Nazi's were doing was stepping outside the bounds of Traditional Morality and forming their own partial morality. For instance, they redefined "Justice" as "what is in the interest of the Third Reich." Their problem was, in fact, much like your own. Not really. If Hitler had been a little more hesitating (= waiting a for a few more years) until he developed an atom bomb, if Hitler hadn't made a few unfavourable (for him) military moves then I am sure he COULD HAVE won. In other words: What you describe as "partial morality" could have become the "standard morality" and we would live now in a world with "Germania" as the global capital city. Your term "partial morality" vs "traditional morality" can only be applied by you now because of Hitler's "mistakes". posted by knn |
|||
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
knn: In other words: What you describe as "partial morality" could have become the "standard morality" and we would live now in a world with "Germania" as the global capital city. Exactly. This is the problem. When we set any partial morality (even the secular morality which many of you embrace) above Traditional Morality and use it as a standard, there is the same threat of losing our humanity and committing horrible atrocities. knn: Your term "partial morality" vs "traditional morality" can only be applied by you now because of Hitler's "mistakes". No. My judgement of Hitler's morality would still stand. Those who trust merely in what society has taught them would be the ones corrupted by the regime. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
stinkz: However, that does not change the fact that IF the government prohibited homosexuality, it would be doing homosexuals good. There are many things that people claim the government could prohibit "for the good of others". That doesn't mean it would be moral for the government to do so. Besides, your only basis for saying prohibiting homosexuality would be good for homosexuals is that you claim it's immoral (we're leaving disease out of this, per your first post). So it wouldn't be good for homosexuals. It would be good for you. posted by Tiefling |
|||
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tiefling: There are many things that people claim the government could prohibit "for the good of others". That doesn't mean it would be moral for the government to do so. I have not advocated that it should do so. Tiefling: So it wouldn't be good for homosexuals. It would be good for you. If we are talking about moral goodness, then it will be good for homosexuals as well. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
stinkz: If we are talking about moral goodness, then it will be good for homosexuals as well. And it's immoral because the Bible says so, and the Bible is right because the Bible says so. I think we've been through this circle a few dozen times. Is there anything else to back up your claim besides "the Bible says so and the Bible is right"? Otherwise, I'm outta here. posted by Tiefling |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
stinkz: fatpie42: The Bible gives us a traditional morality. Well, off to a bad start. The Bible doesn't "give us" traditional morality. It is merely a part of it. fatpie: Why should we accept the traditional morality?
Because it is written in the Bible. Wrong again. We should accept traditional morality because, without it, we have no basis for a belief in rational morality at all. Nowhere have I stated either of your two "proofs" of my logical circle. Your method of argument is insane. You tell me what I believe, then blame me for believing it. THAT is far more circular than anything I have said. Reminds me of the world balanced on four elephants, which are balanced on a turtle theory. You have told me that the morals of the world are based on traditional morality and you have told me that the Bible is based on traditional morality, but you haven't told me what traditional morality is based on. It seems that you do not solve the problem of giving a basis of rational morality by proposing that there is a traditional morality, because you then need to explain what the basis of the traditional morality is. The basis of morality is that it produces positive naturalistic results eg. less suffering, less death/more happy life. What is traditional morality based on? A God likes this and doesn't like that. Oh great! Glad YOU know what rationality is... posted by fatpie42 |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tiefling: And it's immoral because the Bible says so, and the Bible is right because the Bible says so.
I think we've been through this circle a few dozen times. Is there anything else to back up your claim besides "the Bible says so and the Bible is right"? Otherwise, I'm outta here. Go ahead. Fall back on fatpie's illogical attack. Step outside humanity and form your own morality based upon nothing except what you've been taught by society, and what your admittedly corrupt conscience tells you. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
fatpie42: but you haven't told me what traditional morality is based on. I have already told you. It is based on the common thread which runs through all of humanity's ancient moral writings. fatpie42: The basis of morality is that it produces positive naturalistic results eg. less suffering, less death/more happy life. That is not the basis of morality, though it could be the basis of tyranny. posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
How the hell can a care for people's wellbeing be "the basis of tyranny"? That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard! posted by fatpie42 |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
stinkz: Step outside humanity and form your own morality based upon nothing except what you've been taught by society, and what your admittedly corrupt conscience tells you. Step outside humanity and form your own morality based upon nothing except what you've been taught by the Bible, and completely ignore what common sense tells you. Like I said. Give some justification for the morality presented in the Bible. Otherwise your argument is empty my friend, like Fatpie repeatedly pointed out. posted by Tiefling |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
But what are ancient moral writings based on? The concepts of "what should be approved of" in ancient society! So you are saying that instead of basing our morality on what we think we SHOULD approve of now, we should base our morality on what people approved of in the past? How does that make rational sense? posted by fatpie42 |
|||
|
|||
|
|||
|
fatpie42: How the hell can a care for people's wellbeing be "the basis of tyranny"? That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Care for one particular person's well-being is always the basis of tyranny. But more than that, the tyrannical leader always sees what he produces as "positive, naturalistic results." posted by stinkz |
|||
|
|||
|
The time now is 6 October 2008, 19:51 php B.B. |