»It's OK that some people get a very high salary«
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 Marl64: You're confusing Income with Productivity. It punishes high earners not hard workers. A Typically Capitalist slant This is in most cases the only measurement you can have. You cannot else but measure productivity by the income someone has in most cases. There are only a few times where the income IS NOT equivalent to someone's productivity:
Other than that, your income _is_ is most cases EQUIVALENTLY related to your
In other words: If you double your influence you double your money. Marl64: In actual fact, ALL tax is Socialist in nature - that is, individuals are contributing to the welfare of the people as a whole. Not at all. Noone would shout "What? I have to pay for the Hamburger? That's socialist in nature!". It's about exchange. If you SEE that the country does its duties you are actually willing to give a bit of your money. That is a fair exchange. It's not socialist. Marl64: Sure, tax me on what I earn, but don't tax me again when I spend it In other words: National sales tax. The one I mentioned above. Marl64: I agree that banded tax is unfair, but since I've never qualified for "Supertax" I've never felt the pain all that money must bring You are wrong. You feel that taxation every day. Why? Because you cannot tax the rich. The rich will tax you. They simply increase their prices or they leave the country: IMO → Why you cannot tax the rich. Or: Why you always tax the poor posted by knn |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsPolitics and Crime (Assorted topics)It's OK that some people get a very high salary |
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 knn: Other than that, your income _is_ is most cases directly related to your productivity/ intelligence/ good effect/ courage. Many blue collar workers are very productive and put in 12-16hrs/day for much of their lives, yet they will never make as much as most white collar jobs. Indeed intelligence, schooling, etc are key factors here as to why they make less. But I don't think their income represents their level of productivity. posted by volonteshiva |
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volonteshiva: Many blue collar workers are very productive and put in 12-16hrs/day for much of their lives Blue collars are nowhere NEAR the productivity of a manager. You can work 18hours per day cleaning a street. But your boss is responsible for cleaning the town. If one should be paid by "working hours per day" then everybody would be paid like a manager, since even managers cannot work more than 24 hours per day. posted by knn |
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knn: volonteshiva: Many blue collar workers are very productive and put in 12-16hrs/day for much of their lives Blue collars are nowhere NEAR the productivity of a manager. You can work 18hours per day cleaning a street. But your boss is responsible for cleaning the town. Ok, but I would see that manager as still a blue collar manager. i.e. That guy is in public works, it's his job to service the public. Now take a bank manager, or a stock manager, and I would like to see if you think that guy is as productive as the public works manager. Plus what precisely are we speaking of in regards to productivity? Units products? Streets cleaned? Stocks sold? What exaclty? posted by volonteshiva |
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 volonteshiva: Plus what precisely are we speaking of in regards to productivity? Units products? Streets cleaned? Stocks sold? What exaclty? This one's easy. [CAPITALIST MODE] Productivity = Profit Generated [/CAPITALIST MODE] 
posted by Marl64 |
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knn: Not at all. Noone would shout "What? I have to pay for the Hamburger? That's socialist in nature!".
It's about exchange. If you SEE that the country does its duties you are actually willing to give a bit of your money. That is a fair exchange. It's not socialist. Capitalist only see things in terms of the transfer of assets eh? If I give this - I get that. We (willingly) exchange money in exchange for the country doing it's duties? - what country do you live in?
Taxation is legally enforced but necessary for the well being of society - Dictatorial application of socialist values. It is not paid as appreciation for services provided, since much of it goes on things we don't want - yet the Government decide is in our best interests. Like Wars and Butter Mountains and Import Levies. posted by Marl64 |
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Marl64: Capitalist only see things in terms of the transfer of assets eh?
If I give this - I get that. And the socialists see it "I don't do anything, yet I get it". Marl64: It is not paid as appreciation for services provided, since much of it goes on things we don't want - yet the Government decide is in our best interests.
Like Wars and Butter Mountains and Import Levies. That's why the taxes are so high. Because the countries put their nose in things which aren't their business. Or: Because the are a mis-management. Both things are the reason for much too high taxes. I don't think a well-managed country will need more than 10% (or max. 15%) of people's turnover. posted by knn |
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volonteshiva: Now take a bank manager, or a stock manager, and I would like to see if you think that guy is as productive as the public works manager. Of course, he affects many more people's money than a street cleaning manager. Look, if it's sooo easy to become a bank manager then everyone would do it. It's not. Thus the bank managers gets exactly paid as much as he is worth it (with a few exceptions). Actually they don't get much. Approx 8'000 Euro per month. The guys who really get much are managers of big international companies. And this is only the case in the US. In other countries even such managers get not too much money. I saw a recently a report where a professor for international business law was talking. And he said that it's only in the US. volonteshiva: Plus what precisely are we speaking of in regards to productivity? Units products? Streets cleaned? Stocks sold? What exaclty? "Valuable Products achieved" Clean streets, tables sold, satisfied customers, fire-secured buildings are all examples of valuable products. Stocks are no product in themselves. The whole stock market is a big non-productive bubble because it makes money with money without products. Their so called "products" are mainly fantasy. If you now have some guy who made his money with stocks (or by interest or by other capitalistic means) then you have actually a case where the capitalistic system is LEGALLY STEALING the money from productive people. It's sick and should be stopped, especially since this whole system tends to crash because of this gigantic distortion. posted by knn |
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Marl64: [CAPITALIST MODE] Productivity = Profit Generated [/CAPITALIST MODE] The point is, that this statement "Productivity = Profit generated" is BASICALLY true, yet completely corrupted because nowadays "Profit generated" includes also the "Increase in share value" (= stock market). However the stock market value in most cases is mere fantasy. Would you buy a company for 100 million if the company has only 1 million on their bank accounts? Hardly. Yet shares are even sold for 300 million for a 1 million company. These are fantasy values. Thus an increase in such "stock market values" is only "money on paper". That's the reasons why stock markets have to crash periodically. The next "adjustment" will be approx.2012 if you can trust some experts. posted by knn |
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 i didn't follow half of that conversation, sorry, im 14. but ill respond to this: knn: Blue collars are nowhere NEAR the productivity of a manager. that's true. you can also change the "manager" to say, who shall i pick...Mr. Trump! i read his bk, and there's like this personal account for like a week. his schedule is solidly packed. every minute, second counts. feel sorry for the rich ol' fella posted by sangu |
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sangu: his schedule is solidly packed. every minute, second counts. Yes, but let me restate: How many minutes per day you work is NOT the point. The point is how much you move and how many people you affect. If you are responsible for building 10 bridges then you are more productive than someone who serves burgers at McDon. If you sing a worldwide #1 hit then you are more productive than someone who sings a top #20 hit in Uruguay although you both have physically done the same work. The #1 product is simply more valuable/bigger/more effective than the #20 product. If you don't agree, then why aren't you buying top #20 hits from Uruguay if they are equally valuable? posted by knn |
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Ok, I do understand your point. The manager of 12 bridges is more productive than 1 guy on one bridge welding 1 small section. But w/o the blue collar workers, that bridge wouldn't get built, and in general civilization would grind to a halt in many areas. Until you replace them all w/ robots/automated systems that is. And then of course, you have the eventual robot revolt.  posted by volonteshiva |
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volonteshiva: But w/o the blue collar workers, that bridge wouldn't get built, and in general civilization would grind to a halt in many areas. THAT noone doubts. Without the garbage man, the garbage would pile up. But whatever the amount of garbage is the garbage man brings away: The MANAGER of the garbage men influences more. And it's also a question of supply and demand (as I write in my first post): If there are a lot of others that could do your job you can't earn much. posted by knn |
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knn: If you are responsible for building 10 bridges then you are more productive than someone who serves burgers at McDon. Not to someone who is hungry knn: If you sing a worldwide #1 hit then you are more productive than someone who sings a top #20 hit in Uruguay although you both have physically done the same work. Based on What? knn: The #1 product is simply more valuable/bigger/more effective than the #20 product. Again the Capitalist viewpoint - More sales = more productivity. It assumes that everyone who buys a record is given a free choice, rather than being subjected to Radio Playlists, The corporate selling machine, Social pressure and the availability of the Record. It assumes that the everyone gets the same level of enjoyment out of it (after all this is the Entertainment Industry so that must be the Goal) and that everyone who liked it bought it (rather than taping it from the radio, a friends album or downloading as MP3) It redefines the aim of the music industry from one of providing entertainment, to one of selling records. It is the sole reason for that manufactured music we all dispise so much. knn: If you don't agree, then why aren't you buying top #20 hits from Uruguay if they are equally valuable? Because I don't hear them as they don't get air time and are not available in any shops. Because the market is controlled and manipulated rather being left alone. Goods aren't produced to meet a demand anymore, a demand is generated to sell goods. Have you ever seen a film called "The Matrix"?
posted by Marl64 |
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On Criticism of the British National Health Service (which is slowly being chopped into privatised chunks) is that there are too many managers. I don't have the exact figures, but the ratio of Managers to nurses is ridiculous There's a typical pyramid structure, but there are more Manager Layers than Nurse Layers, so it works out that Nurses don't outnumber managers in the way that you'd expect. Since most managers are paid more than the nurses, the majority of the Salary Pool goes to those not directly providing care to the patients. Another Criticism is the amount of paperwork required and this is blamed on the thing been "over-managed". Needless paperwork passed between the layers of management reporting how well the Nurses are doing their jobs and providing targets for them to meet. This being a serice industry, there is no product. In such an industry, the way to increase "Productivity" is to treat more patients while not losing the level of care. And so you have several ideas on how to achieve this
To me one of these seems like common sense, another pure exploitation and the remaining one simply nonesense. I don't think knn would agree with me on which is which
posted by Marl64 |
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The time now is 23 May 2012, 23:13 php B.B. |