»Was Jesus a criminal and the apostles his gang?«
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 stinkz: What crime did Jesus commit?
You can't expect the scrolls to give you true answers since they were written by his (also criminal, e.g. Paulus) followers. Maybe only his after-death re-appearence is true. Thus it's so funny hearing his followers talking about marriage, morals, love and divorce... 
posted by knn |
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| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsWas Jesus a criminal and the apostles his gang? |
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 knn: A crime worth of being crucified. Not even Pilate could bring himself to sentance this man, despite the public outcry. knn: Maybe he was attacking Roman troops (= terrorist), who knows. After all Peter was pretty quick to cut off the Roman troop's ear. Nothing about his life, or anything written about him even remotely suggests that. You will come up with anything, despite how untrue, to prove a point. Also, Peter was acting defensively. knn: Moreover he isn't mentioned in any source Check again. knn: Moreover he did probably something severe. He did do something severe. He claimed to be God. knn: Moreover his apostles denied to know him. Actually, many of the apostles were martyred for not denying him. But, anyways, denying something because of a death threat does not make a person a criminal. knn: They weren't married. That too, hints at some criminals. Oh wow. All you singles out there should love this one. knn: The talk about love and god is of course similar to the talk of USAma bin Laden about "love & god". You make this claim all the time, because you would love for it to be true. Yet you have failed to produce any evidence for it. You might as well state your "proof" in its true form, "Usama believes in a god, and he's a terrorist. The Apostles believe in God, therefore they must also be terrorists." posted by stinkz |
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 stinkz: u make this claim all the time, because you would love for it to be true. Yet you have failed to produce any evidence for it. And what evidence do YOU have? Oh, some scrolls written 100 years after his death. I forgot. stinkz: Not even Pilate could bring himself to sentance this man, despite the public outcry. Says who? Oh, the scrolls. As if someone has been there watching Jesus with Pilatus. stinkz: You will come up with anything, despite how untrue, to prove a point. Also, Peter was acting defensively. Oh, yeah, they were so defensive that they carried swords with them. stinkz: Nothing about his life, or anything written about him even remotely suggests that. Read the bible between the lines. stinkz: knn: Moreover he isn't mentioned in any source Check again. I checked again. Nope, not a single source from his era. For all the wonders that he did it's pretty astonishing that noone mentions even his name. stinkz: He did do something severe. He claimed to be God. Fine that you want to believe the bible that that was the reason. Look, if a bible should ever come out with USAma as the "hero" then I am sure they will write something like "He was given the death punishment by his enemy because he dared to challenge them". My gosh, stinkz! Noone gets crucified by saying "I am god". stinkz: Actually, many of the apostles were martyred for not denying him. That was after he re-appeared. Different story. They believed they would go to heaven. stinkz: knn: They weren't married. That too, hints at some criminals. Oh wow. All you singles out there should love this one. That's basic statistics, stinkz. It was HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely in those days to be unmarried (as it was highly unlikely to have a shaved face), unlike today. Only criminals, madmen and vagabonds were unmarried in those times. posted by knn |
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knn: Says who? Oh, the scrolls. As if someone has been there watching The same scrolls that tell you that Jesus was punished as a criminal. knn: Read the bible between the lines. Read the Bible, at all. knn: Fine that you want to believe the bible that that was the reason. It is a very logical reason. It was the Jews who wanted him killed, because of his blasphemy, which incited the people. The Sanhedrin had incredible power in those days. knn: Only criminals and madmen were unmarried in those times. That is a bold statement, but I have no reason to believe it is true. posted by stinkz |
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stinkz: Read the Bible, at all. Are you evil, stinkz? IMO → What to say to someone who insists to pray#30572 Promoting a satanic book that caused so much pain? stinkz: The Sanhedrin had incredible power in those days. Obviously more than god himself 
You see, stinkz, you claim that Jesus was killed becaused he claimed to be god. Just imagine for one second, that Jesus was NOT GOD. What stays then? Happily I listed in my list of "unmarried individuals" also madmen. Now, you are basically in a trap: Because if he didn't claim to be god, why was he killed? If he did claim it, yet noone really realized it, then he was probably mad. However I don't know where in the bible he claimed that he was god. So let's assume he was not god. stinkz: That is a bold statement, but I have no reason to believe it is true. You are right, I have to correct my statement. I forgot GAYS. posted by knn |
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knn: Just imagine for one second, that Jesus was NOT GOD. What stays then? Happily I listed in my list of "unmarried individuals" also madmen. I will happily agree with you that, if Jesus is not God, than he was merely a madman. knn: If he did claim it, yet noone really realized it Many many people realized it. In fact, people still realize it to this day. posted by stinkz |
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stinkz: Many many people realized it. So many, that even his deciples were scattered all over the place with not obe spark of hope after he died. stinkz: In fact, people still realize it to this day. Whatever they realize... IMO → How wrong conclusions can make you believe in the bible and IMO → Jesus loves you and has a plan for your life posted by knn |
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 stinkz: knn: Moreover he isn't mentioned in any source Check again. Stinkz, please enlighten us as to the sources other than the Bible that list and describe Jesus. posted by volonteshiva |
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volonteshiva: Stinkz, please enlighten us as to the sources other than the Bible that list and describe Jesus. There are some sources that are allegedly from Jesu time, but they appeared in the Middle Ages (= the ages of forgery and fakes). It was actually always embarrassing for Christians of all times, that noone ever took notice of all the wonders Jesus did. He ressurected corpses and made the blind see, yet noone took notice... But it's pretty sure they crucified him... No go figure what is more likely: That he was a wonderman or a gangsterman. posted by knn |
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stinkz: I will happily agree with you that, if Jesus is not God, than he was merely a madman. Be careful what you agree to. You have a strange picture of the glory of the Lord if you assume that god personally could descend onto earth and noone notices anything. Strange idea that god personally was circumsized. posted by knn |
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 You have no facts to back up any of these claims. knn: A crime worth of being crucified. The Bible says Pilate didn't want to crucify Jesus, but the Jews insisted. It was religious intolerance. knn: Maybe he was attacking Roman troops (= terrorist), who knows. Proof? knn: After all Peter was pretty quick to cut off the Roman troop's ear. And Jesus was pretty quick to stop him. knn: Maybe he was spreading some dangerous propaganda Well, um, duh,  . That's kinda what the whole conflict was. The Jews didn't like someone claiming to be the messiah.knn: Moreover he isn't mentioned in any source (except the bible) thus he was maybe some underground saboteur. The fact that he wasn't mentioned in any other source proves the opposite! If he had been a dangerous criminal, historians of the period would have cared enough to record his misdeeds. Actually, he had very little impact on history. It was Paul who started the Christian religion based upon Jesus. knn: Moreover he did probably something severe. After all he was only agitating approx 3 years. That's probably comparable with 3 months nowadays. Crucification is a pretty severe punishment for such a short time. 3 years of going into temples to tell people that he was god? 3 years of telling Jews that they were corrupt? I think that's plenty. knn: Moreover his apostles denied to know him. They denied him because they were afraid for their own lives. Nothing's scarier than an angry mob. knn: They weren't married. That too, hints at some criminals. volonteshiva isn't married either. Guess he's a criminal? knn: The talk about love and god is of course similar to the talk of USAma bin Laden about "love & god". Except, of course, that there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support the claim that Jesus engaged in terrorism! posted by Tiefling |
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Tiefling: The Bible says Pilate didn't want to crucify Jesus, but the Jews insisted. It was religious intolerance. You are right. The BIBLE says it. As if 1 person was there when Jesus talked to Pilatus. Of course the bible will spread propaganda like "Wow, even Pontius was fascinated by Jesus". Tiefling: And Jesus was pretty quick to stop him. Sure, he had no chance against Romans. Tiefling: The fact that he wasn't mentioned in any other source proves the opposite! If he had been a dangerous criminal, historians of the period would have cared enough to record his misdeeds. No, it only shows that he was _unknown_. Not that he was uninfluential. The same applies today: Do you know the men and women behind president Bush? Maybe there are even secret world rulers and we don't know their names. I stand by my statement: If he was walking around and healing the blind, the crippled, the mad, then at least some sources would have mentioned it. If you believe THIS, then maybe you also believe THAT: And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. You are free to believe that this could happen without ANY single note except in the bible. Tiefling: 3 years of going into temples to tell people that he was god? 3 years of telling Jews that they were corrupt? I think that's plenty. Huh? Where do you have this from? Jesus didn't do that for 3 years. He only did that occasionally. Tiefling: volonteshiva isn't married either. Guess he's a criminal? I already debunked this above. Tiefling: Except, of course, that there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support the claim that Jesus engaged in terrorism! Yes, there is. He was crucified like a criminal. posted by knn |
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knn: You are right. The BIBLE says it. As if 1 person was there when Jesus talked to Pilatus.
Of course the bible will spread propaganda like "Wow, even Pontius was fascinated by Jesus". So you're not basing your statements on the Bible, and you're not basing your statements on historical fact. So in other words, it's pure, empty conjecture, with nothing to back it up. knn: I stand by my statement: If he was walking around and healing the blind, the crippled, the mad, then at least some sources would have mentioned it. Off-topic. This thread is about whether or not he was a criminal, not whether or not he was a healer. knn: If you believe THIS, then maybe you also believe THAT: And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. You are free to believe that this could happen without ANY single note except in the bible. Off-topic. This is a thread about whether or not Jesus was a criminal, not whether or not the book of Matthew is accurate. knn: Yes, there is. He was crucified like a criminal. That is only proof that he was a criminal. Not a terrorist. According to the Bible, a thief was crucified next to Jesus. By your logic, that thief was most likely a terrorist too. posted by Tiefling |
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I don't understand any of your objections. None of my statements is offtopic. It goes as follows:
Tiefling: Off-topic. This thread is about whether or not he was a criminal, not whether or not he was a healer. Yes, but being an underground criminal and being a healer is pretty much the opposite. In other words: The death penalty is the only thing that stays from Jesus life as a fact (since the wonders most probably didn't happen). In other words: It hints at Jesus being a mere criminal: Ontopic as ontopic can be. Tiefling: Off-topic. This is a thread about whether or not Jesus was a criminal, not whether or not the book of Matthew is accurate. Yes, but this is highly related. Because if Matthew writes something about "many resurrections" yet none of them happened, then we can assume, that Matthew fabricates a lot. In other words: Most probably Matthew's religious justification for Jesus' death penalty is a mere fabrication, too. Jesus could have been a criminal indeed, worth a death penalty. In other words: Ontopic as ontopic can be. Tiefling: So you're not basing your statements on the Bible, and you're not basing your statements on historical fact. So in other words, it's pure, empty conjecture, with nothing to back it up. Yes, I assume that the bible is correct in some points, for example that Jesus has been crucified. If one doesn't even believe that Jesus lived or that Jesus has been crucified then all Christianity talks are pretty useless. posted by knn |
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knn: Jesus could be an underground (or unimportant) actor. That's why he wasn't mentioned by non-religious sources. That was my point from earlier --- that he personally didn't have much of an impact on history. His followers did. knn: The wonders of the bible are obviously false since non-religious sources would have mentioned them, too. Off-topic. That should be in a thread on whether or not the Bible is credible. knn: Jesus was a criminal, since otherwise he would not have been crucified. People throughout all of history have been punished for crimes they did not commit. You're trying to make the claim that because Jesus was crucified he must have been a terrorist. knn: Yes, but this is highly related. Because if Matthew writes something about "many resurrections" yet none of them happened, then we can assume, that Matthew fabricates a lot. In other words: Most probably Matthew's religious justification for Jesus' death penalty is a mere fabrication, too. Matthew wrote about many resurrections. Mark, Luke, and John did not. This is not a thread about Bible fabrications. In fact, this isn't a thread about the Bible at all. You have nothing to back up your claims besides pure conjecture. knn: Jesus could have been a criminal indeed, worth a death penalty. Anything is possible, with regard to history. It's pointless to argue based on what is possible. Instead, you must argue based on what is probable. Miller, The Jesus Seminar and Its Critics It's possible the sun didn't rise last week. That doesn't mean we have any reason to believe that that happened! posted by Tiefling |
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