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»Did Jesus really live? Did a historical Jesus really exist?«





Did Jesus really live? Did a historical Jesus really exist?

   
Yes, but without wonders
43%
 43%  [ 7 ]
Yes, and he did some wonders
37%
 37%  [ 6 ]
Don't know / Can't decide
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
No, there was no Jesus / Jesus is only a figure from jewish mythology
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Number of users, who voted: 16
Number of counted votes: 16




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As you know no single eyewitness has ever written about Jesus. All New Testament texts have been written decades/generations after Jesus died. Jesus is not mentioned in any other historical source, except in the New Testament.

All writings about Jesus are hearsay. No secular writings (positive or negative) exist. Jesus' name isn't mentioned anywhere else.

posted by knn
  

in-my-opinion.org -> Religion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolves -> Religious & Philosophical Topics -> Did Jesus really live? Did a historical Jesus really exist?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can choose "Yes, and he did some wonders" without being a Christian. Shouldn't there be a "Yes and he was a prophet from God" option for muslims and "Yes and he was the messiah" for Christians (I think Jehovah's witnesses still refer to Jesus as 'messiah' right?).

posted by fatpie42
  

Historical



fatpie42:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can choose "Yes, and he did some wonders" without being a Christian.

Of course. Actually I have been a long time believer that EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE in his resurrection you have still the freedom to reject him.

So in other words: If you believe "He was historical, died and reappeared" then you are still free to say "So what? Nothing changed after he reappeared." You may even believe "He lied to his overwhelmed apostles. He never planned to return after his reappearence
fatpie42:
Shouldn't there be a "Yes and he was a prophet from God" option for muslims and "Yes and he was the messiah" for Christians

Nah, this is the "historical (o)yes (o)no" poll. I don't care here whether he was just a circumsized donkeyrider or god himnself.


posted by knn

yes, but no wonders



I think an historical Jesus really existed and got himself crucified. After all, someone got the fanboi apostles all praising the lord. But doing wonders? Fat chance. If so, there would have been more literature written about him from that time, rather than from several generations later.

posted by Tiefling
  


Whether or not you believe Jesus was a miracle worker or God, eyewitnesses have written about him--his disciples Matthew, Mark, and Luke--though they wrote the gospels years later. Also, a contemporary of Jesus wrote some about his life (and was not a Christian--but a non-practicing Jew who became a historian for the Romans). His name was Flavius Josephus and you can pick up his works just about anywhere.

posted by sallyjo
  

Merely forgeries



sallyjo:
Whether or not you believe Jesus was a miracle worker or God, eyewitnesses have written about him--his disciples Matthew, Mark, and Luke--though they wrote the gospels years later. Also, a contemporary of Jesus wrote some about his life (and was not a Christian--but a non-practicing Jew who became a historian for the Romans). His name was Flavius Josephus and you can pick up his works just about anywhere.

Wrong. Not a single eyewitness has written about him. The gospels are named by randomly chosing names, e.g. "Mark".

The Flavius Jopsephus record that you mention is a forgery:
Flavius Josephus
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.


Give me a freaking break. That is a historian writing? No way.

Moreover it's about 60 years after Jesus death. Hardly any proof.

Moreover this text appears for the first time in the 4th century, presented by a infamous forger (Eusebius).

Another desparate Christian forgery.

Please also read this:
Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus’ work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.


There is plenty of counterproof on that page.


posted by knn
  

SILENCE tells more than forgery



I just want to point out that the NON-MENTION of Jesus tells more than anything else:
The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:

Josephus, Arrian, Philo- Judaeus, Petronius, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Suetonius, Juvenal, Martial, Persius, Plutarch, Justus of Tiberius, Apollonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Quintilian, Lucanus, Epictetus, Silius Italicus, Statius, Ptolemy, Hermogones, Valerius Maximus, Appian, Theon of Smyrna, Phlegon, Pompon Mela, Quintius Curtius, Lucian, Pausanias, Valerius Flaccus, Florus Lucius, Favorinus, Phaedrus, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Columella, Dio Chrysostom, Lysias, Appion of Alexandria.

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the dead took place when Christ himself rose from the dead, and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

Justus of Tiberius was a native of Christ’s own country, Galilee. He wrote a history covering the time of Christ’s reputed existence. This work has perished, but Photius, a Christian scholar and critic of the ninth century, who was acquainted with it, says: “He [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did”




posted by knn
  



knn:
Actually I have been a long time believer that EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE in his resurrection you have still the freedom to reject him.

Basically, what you're saying is, "I'll believe anything except Christianity," no matter what evidence arises." As, I pointed out elsewhere, your opinon is pretty obvious, knn...


posted by stinkz
  If popular thought feels 'science' to be different from all other kinds of knowledge because science is experimentally verifiable, it is mistaken.

Get the searchengines going



stinkz:
Basically, what you're saying is, "I'll believe anything except Christianity," no matter what evidence arises. As, I pointed out elsewhere, your opinon is pretty obvious, knn...

What? I pretty never state my opinion. And that what you pointed out elsewhere is some of the most wrong description about myself that anyone could have stated. In other words: You can't judge from my posts to my opinions. Moreover I am the admin of this forum and my task is it to get the searchengines going.


posted by knn
  

Proof for a historical Jesus?



The historian Jospephus is only supposed to have mentioned Jesus once and that is generally supposed to have been added subsequently by a Christian. Josephus does, however, mention an awful lot about John The Baptist. Strange when you consider that J the B was mostly wandering in the desert while Jesus is believed to have had a heroes welcome to Jerusalem with people places palm leaves before him and celebrating his arrival. Surely Josephus would have heard something about such a prominent figure?

posted by fatpie42
  "The beauty of the Superman came to me as a shadow. What are the gods to me now!"

Noone noticed the creator of mankind



fatpie42:
Josephus does, however, mention an awful lot about John The Baptist.

fatpie42:
Strange when you consider that J the B was mostly wandering in the desert while Jesus is believed to have had a heroes welcome to Jerusalem with people places palm leaves before him and celebrating his arrival. Surely Josephus would have heard something about such a prominent figure?

Exactly. A hint at the irrelevance of Jesus at his times. God came into our world, died for us... and noone noticed until now.


posted by knn
  

did Jesus live?



did Jesus live? very much so and he does to day. He is spoken of from the beginning of the Bible all the way to the end of the Bible. John 1:1-4 state that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning . John 1:14 say the Word became flesh (That flesh was Jesus and made his dwelling among us).

Genesis 1:3,6,9,14,20,24, it states" that God spoke or God said," God said words his word his voice. this is where "The Word" was in the beginning and that word was Jesus, Gods voice created the World. and his Word became flesh, who is Jesus in the Body, born of women. The beginning and the end Revelation 1:8 I Am Alpha and Omega who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty.

Yea I would say he is and was and is coming again as he said he would! Thank God!

posted by annaradler
  

The following post has been deemed OFFTOPIC. Do not answer it and do not quote from it or from parts of it. The reporter (knn) said: "Offtopic"

Did Kung Fu Jesus Really Live?


That is, did the "Christ figure" who dies in every action/martial-arts movie have a historical prototype in Roman Palestine? I believe so. The jerk-off (no sex, remember?) who started all that mess was probably a schizophrenic peasant who decided he was God and had to die for all mankind's sins (the idea of committing an atrocious act to redeem sinners is common among the mentally ill: for an example, see Berger,L., We Heard the Angels of Madness).
I have discovered an ancient parchment - after traveling the world and experiencing many outlandish adventures- which indicates that Jesus was in fact

1) A transsexual;
2) A Shaolin-trained Jewish commando who carried on a jihad against occupying Roman forces;
3) God Almighty, King of Kings, Prince of Peace, Redeemer of Mankind, and,
4) A schizophrenic who thought he was God.

Does my parchment prove my beliefs are valid? If not, then you must admit, the Bible does not prove yours, Christian.

"When I get that feeling, I need transsexual healing!"


posted by footloosifer
  

Offtopic



annaradler:
did Jesus live? very much so and he does to day.

This thread is about proof for a historical Jesus. Not what people BELIEVE.

That the bible tells us stories about Jesus is known.

Or do you want me to cite some old Greek text for the proof that Zeus lived?


posted by knn
  

Re: Did Kung Fu Jesus Really Live?



footloosifer:
see Berger,L., We Heard the Angels of Madness

1) What the hell was that thing about an ancient parchment?

2) Could you give us some idea of what is written in the book? All the reviews I can find simply say it is the story of a child's struggle with bi-polar disorder. What does it say which makes it likely that Jesus was bi-polar?


posted by fatpie42
  



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