»Was Jesus a Communist?«
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 knn: I wanted also to add that part of the communist systems as we know them is the inability to choose from different products.
East Germany had only 1 car type. Russia had only 1 bread type. etc This is a repeat of several already jaded arguments regarding communism, based solely on the flaws of historical "communist" states. And this is where the problem lies. Communism MUST be about only having one car type since a "communist" state had such. Tosh! If you want to compare (biblical accounts of) the actions of Jesus against communism, then you should compare these idealised texts with an idealised communism. In which case, I'd say he was more about sharing and equality than posession and greed. If you disagree and feel history does provide good examples of what communism is, then let me suggest that along those lines, democracy must be about limiting the choices of the citizens so that ultimately the elite stay in control, and has bog-all to do with freedom and liberty. posted by Marl64 |
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| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsWas Jesus a Communist? |
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Marl64: Democracy must be about limiting the choices of the citizens so that ultimately the elite stay in control, and has bog-all to do with freedom and liberty. For those who tend to respond without actually taking in what was said, let me use an example. In recent history, the nation which claims to be the most democratic in the world, that holds paramount the rights and freedoms of its citizens, had an election to choose a leader. Out of the entire adult population of that nation (what is that about a quarter of a billion?) it was deemed that only two men were suitable for the job. 
And so the people of that nation were given the freedom to choose which one. Great example of democracy and freedom eh? 
posted by Marl64 |
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 Marl64: Out of the entire adult population of that nation (what is that about a quarter of a billion?) it was deemed that only two men were suitable for the job.
And so the people of that nation were given the freedom to choose which one. Great example of democracy and freedom eh? The argument is very nice, but "Jesus was a democrat" is not on Pawnatron's list. Marl64: If you want to compare (biblical accounts of) the actions of Jesus against communism, then you should compare these idealised texts with an idealised communism. I like that argument, but for the sake of this thread we of course must assume that the bible tells us about how Jesus really was, otherwise a question like "Was Jesus a..." makes no sense since one could always counter-argue "We cannot tell". So let's assume that we know how Jesus was and thus compare the real Jesus with a real communism. The idealized Jesus is of course a theocrat, since he is the one who created the whole universe and will return at the end of times. posted by knn |
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 knn: _I_ said that Jesus wasn't a chavinist ALTHOUGH he might have said something against the seduction of women. Which has nothing to do with what I said. My point was that if Jesus said beautiful women can be seductive, that he would therefore have discouraged men from living with a house full of them. Likewise, if Jesus said materialism can lead one away from righteousness, that he would have discouraged the hoarding of wealth. My point was not, if Jesus said beautiful women can be seductive, then women should be made inferior. I said nothing of the sort, nor does that make any sense. knn: The idealized Jesus is of course a theocrat This is not a question of which government type Jesus would prefer. It is a question of which economic system Jesus would prefer. Theocracy is not an economic system. knn: So let's assume that we know how Jesus was and thus compare the real Jesus with a real communism. Actually, you want us to do the opposite --- compare the "idealized" Jesus with the "real" Communism. We know absolutely nothing about the "real" Jesus --- all we know are what his followers/admirers wrote about him. Clearly, we should compare the "idealized" Jesus with the "idealized" economic systems. Otherwise, it's a pointless question --- "Would Jesus prefer a bloody revolution, the execution of millions of people who opposed the state, and the continual suppression of free thought, or would he prefer living in the United States?" posted by Tiefling |
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Tiefling: This is not a question of which government type Jesus would prefer. It is a question of which economic system Jesus would prefer. Theocracy is not an economic system. 1) Of course it is. Bread for everyone. Except those in hell. 2) Socialism is not an economic system either. And actually communism isn't either. Or at least not limited to. Tiefling: Actually, you want us to do the opposite --- compare the "idealized" Jesus with the "real" Communism. We know absolutely nothing about the "real" Jesus --- all we know are what his followers/admirers wrote about him. I already answered this: This thread is about Jesus so we MUST assume that it's true what the bible says, otherwise you can always argue "Jesus didn't even exist". Tiefling: Clearly, we should compare the "idealized" Jesus with the "idealized" economic systems. I already answered this. The real Jesus (for the sake of this thread) is described in the bible. The idealized Jesus is coming on a white horse from the sky to rule the earth. posted by knn |
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knn: 1) Of course [theocracy is an economic system]. Bread for everyone. Except those in hell. theocracy: A government ruled by or subject to religious authority. knn: 2) Socialism is not an economic system either. socialism: an economic system based on state ownership of capital knn: And actually communism isn't either. Or at least not limited to. communism: A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. knn: This thread is about Jesus so we MUST assume that it's true what the bible says, otherwise you can always argue "Jesus didn't even exist". Wrong. This thread is about the "idealized" Jesus --- the one described in the Bible. This thread is not about the "real" Jesus --- the one which may or may not have existed, and may or may not have been inspirational for some reason. I can clearly prove that this thread is not about the "real" Jesus, because there is no documentation outside of the Bible on the "real" Jesus. If this thread were about the "real" Jesus, the answer should obviously be, for everyone, "I don't know," because there is no proof that the "real" Jesus even existed, much less what his political beliefs were. knn: The real Jesus (for the sake of this thread) is described in the bible. The idealized Jesus is coming on a white horse from the sky to rule the earth. The Jesus coming on a white horse from the sky is the one described in the Bible. This is the "idealized" Jesus. This is the one we're discussing. The Gospels and Revelation are all part of the Bible. posted by Tiefling |
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Tiefling: The Jesus coming on a white horse from the sky is the one described in the Bible. This is the "idealized" Jesus. This is the one we're discussing. The Gospels and Revelation are all part of the Bible. Revelation is a vision. Visions are NOT real but pictures. posted by knn |
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Tiefling: knn: 1) Of course [theocracy is an economic system]. Bread for everyone. Except those in hell. theocracy: A government ruled by or subject to religious authority. knn: 2) Socialism is not an economic system either. socialism: an economic system based on state ownership of capital knn: And actually communism isn't either. Or at least not limited to. communism: A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. This one of the often times where dictionary.com gives me the crap. Whatever I check there, it's either written bad or incomplete. Please use wikipedia instead. For the sake of us all. Socialism: "Socialism is an ideology, that at it's most elemental, is defined by the belief that a society could exist in which individuals control the means of power" Communism: "Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system." So both communism and socialism are ideologies, which (as all ideologies do) embrace economic systems. WHICH... gets me back to my first posts: Let me underline that AGAIN I am fed up with this nonsense poll. I close it now... 
posted by knn |
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knn: 1) Of course it is. Bread for everyone. Except those in hell. Theocracy is a form of government in which a religion and the government are allied. knn: 2) Socialism is not an economic system either. And actually communism isn't either. Or at least not limited to. Capitalism has been defined in various ways (see definitions of capitalism). In common usage it refers to an economic system in which all or most of the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, and where investments, production, distribution, income, and prices are determined largely through the operation of a "free market" rather than by centralized state control (as in a command economy). Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system. This concept and the term Socialist also refer to a group of ideologies, an economic system, or a state that exists or has existed. knn: Revelation is a vision. Visions are NOT real but pictures. Revelation is part of the Bible. If you're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are valid and which aren't, then we can't discuss the nature of the "real" OR the "idealized" Jesus --- there is no documentation on the "real" one, and the only documentation on the "idealized" one "doesn't count", according to you. posted by Tiefling |
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Tiefling: Wikipedia doesn't change the fact Wikipedia changes everything. Please reread the definitions and don't mark the words "economic system" bold to prove your point. " Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things:
" Now you marked the words "economic system" to prove your point illegitimately. I caught you Tiefling 
Definition of capitalism: "Capitalism has been defined in various ways (see definitions of capitalism). In common usage it refers to an economic system" and I have never said it otherwise. BUT, since Pawnatron compares capitalism with communism, he means obviously capitalism as an ideology ("The country should nothing except the most basic things") or communism as an economic system ("there is only a country-controlled production without money"). And I repeat AGAIN the definition of socialism from Wikipedia: "Socialism is an ideology, that at it's most elemental, is defined by the belief that a society could exist in which individuals control the means of power" Case closed, except for capitalism, for which I am very ready to accept the "economic system only"-definition, but which underlines again that it's a crappy and not well thought out poll. posted by knn |
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Tiefling: Revelation is part of the Bible. If you're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are valid and which aren't, then we can't discuss the nature of the "real" OR the "idealized" Jesus I didn't pick anything. But while Luke and the other evangelists tell us about Jesus life, John's revelation is a REVELATION. A complete different thing. Yes, both Luke and John may be correct, but a revelation with 7headed beasts is a VISION and is not meant literally. posted by knn |
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Tiefling: Theocracy is a form of government in which a religion and the government are allied. Yup, Jesus/God will be the personal rulers and some 144000 will rule with them... and creating the promised heaven: Bread for everyone, lions and sheep lie together, peace and no war... Now THIS is idealized. That Jesus preached for some years and got crucified as a criminal is NOT idealized and we must assume this as true for the sake of this thread. Thus we compare the non-idealized Jesus with the non-idealized communism. The alternative would be to compare endtime-theocracy (= "Lions + sheeps") with idealized communism. posted by knn |
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