»Cruise doesn't care what cynics say«
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mymla: hungarian kid: "It is irresponsible for Mr Cruise to use his movie publicity tour to promote his own ideological views and deter people with mental illness from getting the care they need," APA President Dr Steven Sharfstein said in a statement. Blah-blah-blah. OK, I don't think it was a good idea of Cruise's to criticise a woman for taking a drug to fight postpartum depression, because if she doesn't know any other way out except taking a pill, what can you do? (...) Especially in the case of APA, they make sure they have enough clientele whatever celebrities accidentally say. What "other way out" would you suggest for someone with major depression? Suicide? Scientology treatment (which is based on the pseudoscience of biofeedback)? Substance abuse (common among celebrities who do not want to seek treatment due to concerns about stigma)? Counseling by a therapist (which has not been scientifically proven to alleviate depression)? Prayer (this is probably the best of the lot, but we don't know if Shields believes in prayer)? The only thing that makes sure that psychiatrists have enough patients is the fact that mental illness is caused in large part by genetic factors and the stress of a changing society. Psychiatrists have nothing to do with it. How many times have you seen an ad in the paper or on TV for a psychiatrist? I have never seen one here. You're thinking of pharmaceutical companies, I imagine, and while they do have influence, the APA is an independent medical organization. Not trying to jump on you, just wondering what you could possibly mean by an "other way out" for a person with major depression. Here is what happened to one American woman who did not seek treatment for her postpartum depression. In what a police investigator described Thursday as a "zombie-like fashion," Andrea Pia Yates told police how she methodically drowned her five children one by one in a bathtub, then carried four of the limp little bodies to a bedroom and wrapped them in a sheet.
As the 6-month-old baby, Mary, was the fourth to be drowned Wednesday, the eldest son, 7-year-old Noah, came into the bathroom. "What's wrong with Mary?" he asked, according to a police officer who watched Yates' nightmarish videotaped statement. The officer spoke to the Houston Chronicle on condition of anonymity. The boy then bolted, the mother recalled, only to be dragged back to the bathroom to meet the same fate as his four siblings. As the Harris County Medical Examiner's office bore out these facts with preliminary examinations of the five children, their father, NASA engineer Russell Yates, held a news conference Thursday in front of the house. He expressed unwavering support for his wife and said severe depression, which spiked after the birth of each child, led to the horrific killings. posted by holy_of_holies |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsPsychiatry and Anti-PsychiatryCruise doesn't care what cynics say |
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 holy_of_holies: What "other way out" would you suggest for someone with major depression? Suicide? Scientology treatment (which is based on the pseudoscience of biofeedback)? Substance abuse (common among celebrities who do not want to seek treatment due to concerns about stigma)? Counseling by a therapist (which has not been scientifically proven to alleviate depression)? Prayer (this is probably the best of the lot, but we don't know if Shields believes in prayer)? I admit I don't know. I know though that in case I will have a postpartum depression I will make sure drugs are the last solution. As far as your suggestions are concerned - definitely not prayer, unless she is truly religious. Most probably she is not, because I guess if somebody really religious would get a depression, they would think it's the trial from God. Besides, I hardly can imagine a religious person with such problems - maybe because they get their counselling in church before it's too late. Counselling by therapist - has she tried it at least? Before taking an easy solve-all drug? Substance abuse - I am generally against drugs, alcohol included, so I guess not. Sucide is not a way out, sorry. Scientology treatment - what is the pseudoscience of biofeedback? The problem is, with this depression no one really knows the reasons; if it is caused by severe hormone shifts, I doubt it very much that you can help with other drugs. Maybe, it's a sudden lack of some nutrients? Or, they say, women get overwhelmed with the new baby and their responsibilities - well, taking drugs does not increase your sense for it, does it? There are very, very few really bad cases of such depression - mostly it's a normal state for a few weeks which passes if you take care of your baby and your family takes care of you. However, I bet that if you are told you are having a depression, it will only worsen. People should face their problems, not run away from them - this is "the other way out". holy_of_holies: The only thing that makes sure that psychiatrists have enough patients is the fact that mental illness is caused in large part by genetic factors and the stress of a changing society. Psychiatrists have nothing to do with it. Let me disagree. The world has always been changing, maybe some would say it is changing faster now, but I guess for a person involved in a change involves any amount is enough to claim he is stressed. So? People were not so dependant on medicine before, even though they had same problems in most cases as we do now. Because they had no easy way out, they had to think how to deal with it, instead of what to swallow to treat it. Look, you know yourself many of the drugs have side effects. As a result of one medicine you need other three to treat the side-effects. Children get drugged from their early ages, and I bet not because they are so ill in the majority of cases, but because their parents consider them too difficult to deal with and have no time to talk to them and really find out what's their problem. Come, why, if you can take the pill and make the child nicely stupid? And there it goes - you started with one drug, you cannot stop. If it is genetic factors, why is it mainly USA where there is such a large percent of theoretically mentally ill? Maybe it is because of the drugs? Maybe the drugs that the parents have taken from psychiatrists are the reason their children need more? How do you know the drugs you are taking now do not change your own genes that you will pass on to your children? The problem with psychiatrists is that I am afraid they have very little clue to what they are doing. They have absolutely no idea how brain works. No one does, not to be too hard on them. All they know, if you give drug A it will most probably do this, and if you give drug B, it in most cases will do that. Why they do what they do? How it really affects you brains and ability to think? They have no clue. If you have found an answer to a problem, it is not a problem any more, right? If drugs are an answer to the problems, why the heck there's more and more such problems instead of less and less? holy_of_holies: Here is what happened to one American woman who did not seek treatment for her postpartum depression. First things first, I am very sorry for the children. However: I am sorry but I cannot find any traces of the "He expressed unwavering support for his wife and said severe depression, which spiked after the birth of each child, led to the horrific killings." in this article, let alone holy_of_holies: did not seek treatment for her postpartum depression. Quite the opposite, Russell Yates said his wife suffered bouts of depression after the birth of their 2-year-old son but she had responded well to medication.
"It took a while but she snapped out of it," the NASA engineer said. "She was herself again. That was a couple of years ago. She was fine from that time on." She had another reason for depression according to this article, not the postpartum one. Andrea Yates' father died about three months ago, a blow that Russell Yates said sent her into a downward spiral from which she apparently never recovered.
"She was just primed for that depression," he said. "We were all hopeful she'd respond to the same medication she did the first time. She got to about 65 percent (recovery) and just stayed there. She plateaued." She was on heavy medication then, wasn't she? As a faithful belive-in-drugs woman. How do they know it's not the drugs that caused this? posted by mymla |
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mymla: I admit I don't know. I know though that in case I will have a postpartum depression I will make sure drugs are the last solution.
As far as your suggestions are concerned - definitely not prayer, unless she is truly religious. Most probably she is not, because I guess if somebody really religious would get a depression, they would think it's the trial from God. Besides, I hardly can imagine a religious person with such problems - maybe because they get their counselling in church before it's too late. This is provably untrue even in my own case. I was totally religious when I was really sick - got baptized, church every Sunday, prayer every night, Bible reading, etc. - and still ended up in the hospital and forceably medicated, after which I felt better and decided the Bible was a good source of toilet paper. mymla: Counselling by therapist - has she tried it at least? Before taking an easy solve-all drug? Most psychiatrists advocate psychotherapy and most require regular checkups before prescribing medication. So I think she had probably seen somebody. mymla: Scientology treatment - what is the pseudoscience of biofeedback? L. Ron Hubbard raised Scientology from Dianetics' ashes with the aid of a device that tracks electrical resistance on skin surfaces of the "auditee's" hands during sessions. Hubbard claimed that E-meter "reads" confirmed his notions about events, images and words making up a destructive mind he called the "bank." In the auditing procedure, the readings are supposed to signify the presence and dispersal of "charge" present in the events and other "bank" material. The meter not only keeps the processing on course but also verifies the results. mymla: There are very, very few really bad cases of such depression - mostly it's a normal state for a few weeks which passes if you take care of your baby and your family takes care of you. This is untrue. In fact, what you say is an extremely dangerous belief. Major Depression, also called major unipolar depression, is the leading cause of disability in the United States and worldwide. It affects one in 15 Americans in any given year. The suicide rate is 6 times higher for persons with diagnos-able depression than for a person without the illness. With appropriate treatment, 80 percent of those affected can improve mymla: However, I bet that if you are told you are having a depression, it will only worsen. People should face their problems, not run away from them - this is "the other way out". Sometimes people react with anger when told they may have a mental illness. This is due to the stigma placed on such illness by society. Seeking treatment is not "running away" from the problem. It is a courageous decision to fight one's illness despite what people may say. mymla: holy_of_holies: The only thing that makes sure that psychiatrists have enough patients is the fact that mental illness is caused in large part by genetic factors and the stress of a changing society. Psychiatrists have nothing to do with it. Let me disagree. The world has always been changing, maybe some would say it is changing faster now, but I guess for a person involved in a change involves any amount is enough to claim he is stressed. So? People were not so dependant on medicine before, even though they had same problems in most cases as we do now. Because they had no easy way out, they had to think how to deal with it, instead of what to swallow to treat it. Yes, but they died. Or were imprisoned in deplorable conditions. There is no thinking or feeling your way out of major depression. mymla: Look, you know yourself many of the drugs have side effects. As a result of one medicine you need other three to treat the side-effects. Wrong. I take two medications for symptoms of schizoaffective disorder, and none for their side effects. Only once have I taken a medication for a side effect in five years of treatment, and this was for an older-generation injection which I was given (against my will). Such injections are very uncommon and only used in worst-case scenarios. mymla: Children get drugged from their early ages, and I bet not because they are so ill in the majority of cases, but because their parents consider them too difficult to deal with and have no time to talk to them and really find out what's their problem. Come, why, if you can take the pill and make the child nicely stupid? And there it goes - you started with one drug, you cannot stop. Since children may not be able to express or understand many of the core symptoms that would indicate depression in adults, parents should be aware of some key behaviors - in addition to changes in eating or sleeping patterns - that may signal depression in children:
[1] A sudden drop in school performance... mymla: If it is genetic factors, why is it mainly USA where there is such a large percent of theoretically mentally ill? Maybe it is because of the drugs? Because people in many other countries do not have access to or do not seek psychiatric care, due to poverty, societal stigma, and many other factors. Indeed, even in the US, many mentally ill people are unable to afford treatment for their illness. mymla: Maybe the drugs that the parents have taken from psychiatrists are the reason their children need more? How do you know the drugs you are taking now do not change your own genes that you will pass on to your children? This is an example of a lack of understanding of the science of genetics. Genes are not selectively changed by chemicals. They change randomly, and only if the sperm or eggs are changed are the changes passed on. mymla: The problem with psychiatrists is that I am afraid they have very little clue to what they are doing. They have absolutely no idea how brain works. No one does, not to be too hard on them. All they know, if you give drug A it will most probably do this, and if you give drug B, it in most cases will do that.
Why they do what they do? How it really affects you brains and ability to think? They have no clue. This is just silly, mymla. Have you been to medical school? Are you a doctor? How do you know these things? If you had a serious illness, and needed treatment, would you say, "Oh the doctors don't know anything, I'll just think it away." Of course not. You would first thing run to a doctor and ask for treatment and/or medication. mymla: If you have found an answer to a problem, it is not a problem any more, right?
If drugs are an answer to the problems, why the heck there's more and more such problems instead of less and less? Because mental illness is incurable. It can only be treated, not cured. mymla: holy_of_holies: Here is what happened to one American woman who did not seek treatment for her postpartum depression. First things first, I am very sorry for the children. However: I am sorry but I cannot find any traces of the "He expressed unwavering support for his wife and said severe depression, which spiked after the birth of each child, led to the horrific killings." in this article, let alone holy_of_holies: did not seek treatment for her postpartum depression. Quite the opposite, Russell Yates said his wife suffered bouts of depression after the birth of their 2-year-old son but she had responded well to medication.
"It took a while but she snapped out of it," the NASA engineer said. "She was herself again. That was a couple of years ago. She was fine from that time on." She had another reason for depression according to this article, not the postpartum one. Andrea Yates' father died about three months ago, a blow that Russell Yates said sent her into a downward spiral from which she apparently never recovered.
"She was just primed for that depression," he said. "We were all hopeful she'd respond to the same medication she did the first time. She got to about 65 percent (recovery) and just stayed there. She plateaued." She was on heavy medication then, wasn't she? As a faithful belive-in-drugs woman. How do they know it's not the drugs that caused this? How do you know AZT does not cause AIDS? How do you know chemotherapy does not cause cancer? It's obvious. The drugs have the opposite effect to the illness in adults. That's why they're prescribed. And BTW, Andrea Yates was convicted or murder, but the conviction was overturned. Here are some more facts on the case: Some believe or believed that her husband, Russell "Rusty" Yates, an employee of the Johnson Space Center, was responsible for creating the conditions that culminated in the tragedy. Andrea's psychiatrist, Dr. Eileen Starbranch, testified that she urged the couple not to get pregnant again to avert certain future psychotic depression, but the procreative plan taught by the Yates' preacher, Michael Peter Woroniecki, a doctrine to which Rusty Yates subscribed, insisted she should continue to have "as many children as nature allows". posted by holy_of_holies |
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We are terribly offtopic here, aren't we? I hope we will just get split into another thread  holy_of_holies: I felt better and decided the Bible was a good source of toilet paper. Hmm, are you sure that was a right decision? I am not much of a Christian, but considering the Bible as toilet paper is a bit too much. Whatever its religious value, it is at least good as one of the books that influenced the history of the humankind, don't you think so? holy_of_holies: mymla: There are very, very few really bad cases of such depression - mostly it's a normal state for a few weeks which passes if you take care of your baby and your family takes care of you. This is untrue. In fact, what you say is an extremely dangerous belief. Ts-ts, are you taking time to read what I wrote? My piece was about postpartum depression, not the major depression as such. Maybe one is part of the other, but the amount of people affected is much much less, even in US, and the "treatment" that I suggested applies to postpartum only. holy_of_holies: Sometimes people react with anger when told they may have a mental illness. This is due to the stigma placed on such illness by society. Seeking treatment is not "running away" from the problem. It is a courageous decision to fight one's illness despite what people may say. Well, here you certainly know better. My experience is very limited, however, I still believe that people first should try to face their problems and then get on drugs. holy_of_holies: Yes, but they died. Or were imprisoned in deplorable conditions. There is no thinking or feeling your way out of major depression. Huh? Every 15 Americans in any given year died of depression? Or were imprisoned? Come on, the cases worth treatment were very rare. People were spiritually stronger, don't you think? At least in US. Since children may not be able to express or understand many of the core symptoms that would indicate depression in adults, parents should be aware of some key behaviors - in addition to changes in eating or sleeping patterns - that may signal depression in children:
[1] A sudden drop in school performance... Sorry, I am not impressed. A normal parent will see something is wrong long before depression starts. Depression, especially in teenagers, is pretty common, but with careful parenting you can avoid it. Though it is much more time-consuming than medicating. Besides, the source - who but APA would try to prove to you that everything is a mental disorder? Children with conduct disorder exhibit behavior that shows a persistent disregard for the norms and rules of society. Conduct disorder, one of the most frequently seen mental disorders in adolescents... Excuse me? You know what? This really seems to be the case when they invented an illness to fit their treatment. I am not saying anything ADHD, that is indeed a common problem in children, but I am deeply convinced that it is very seldomly caused by physical reasons; very often children are just labelled ADHD because they are harder to deal with than average. holy_of_holies: Because people in many other countries do not have access to or do not seek psychiatric care, due to poverty, societal stigma, and many other factors. Indeed, even in the US, many mentally ill people are unable to afford treatment for their illness. I think people in other countries just live in a more healthy society - when everybody around you is on psychofarmaca, it becomes a norm. People do seek care when they know they need it, don't you worry - as you said yourself, when you have a serious illness you go to a doctor. I guess in other countries ideas of serious illness are just different. holy_of_holies: This is an example of a lack of understanding of the science of genetics. Genes are not selectively changed by chemicals. They change randomly, and only if the sperm or eggs are changed are the changes passed on. Two classes of mutations are spontaneous mutations (naturally occurring) and induced mutations caused by mutagens.
Spontaneous mutations on the molecular level include: Tautomerism Keto ↔ Enol Amino ↔ Imino Depurination ap-site (loss of A or G); occurs 1000 times each day in mammals Deamination base analogs (C→Uracil or A→HX); occurs 100 times each day in mammals Transition Transversion Frameshift mutation (insertion or deletion on one strand), usually through a polymerase error when copying repeated sequences Oxidative damage caused by oxygen radicals Induced mutations on the molecular level can be caused by: Chemicals Nitrosoguanidine (NTG) Base analogs (e.g. BrdU) Simple chemicals (e.g. acids) Alkylating agents (e.g. N-ethyl-N-nitrosourea (ENU)) Methylating agents (e.g. ethane methyl sulfonate (EMS)) Polycyclic hydrocarbons (e.g. benzpyrenes found in internal combustion engine exhaust) DNA intercalating agents (e.g. ethidium bromide) DNA crosslinker (e.g. platinum) Oxygen radicals These are only known ones, I suppose. holy_of_holies: Have you been to medical school? Are you a doctor? How do you know these things? I am not a doctor and therefore certainly haven't been to a medical school. However, it is common knowledge that how mind works is a mystery  So far people fail to explain how the bunch of grey cells called brain manages to work and create a personality. They know some functions, they know some symptoms, but they have no clue how all that together creats an intelligence. And if you don't know how something works, you can hardly claim you know how to fix it or even what to consider a malfunction. holy_of_holies: mymla: If you have found an answer to a problem, it is not a problem any more, right?
If drugs are an answer to the problems, why the heck there's more and more such problems instead of less and less? Because mental illness is incurable. It can only be treated, not cured. Ok, might be. This of course explains why so many people are on drugs - because all are crazy, and only some have the guts to go to a psychiatrist and say it and get their prescription, right? We live in a world of raving lunatics, and if it wouldn't be for the psychofarmaca, we would have been dead. Come on, the vast majority of people are sane. Maybe, many of them just like to be ill because they feel better that way? holy_of_holies: How do you know AZT does not cause AIDS? How do you know chemotherapy does not cause cancer? It's obvious. The drugs have the opposite effect to the illness in adults. That's why they're prescribed. And BTW, Andrea Yates was convicted or murder, but the conviction was overturned. Let's just agree this was a very unfortunate example to prove that untreated postpartum depression led to that tragedy, and especially that psychofarmaca help - she was treated and was on medicines and yet it didn't help. posted by mymla |
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mymla: raving lunatics Slur. End of discussion. I now have this topic blocked. posted by holy_of_holies |
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A poor attempt to get back ontopic  holy_of_holies: mymla: Why do you actually care about this relationship, if I may ask? I care because Batman comics and movies are one of my major reasons for getting out of bed in the morning at this point, and Cruise and his beeyotch are totally ruining the new Batman movie for me. Also, I was looking forward to I see no connection between their relationship and your expectations from the movies. Personally, I like Batman Begins very much. Actually, I think that when a movie is made on a book/play/comics, you have to face it that will be a disappointment - unless of course you accept it that movies are quite different type of art and therefore should be evaluated as such, not based on how well they portray your ideas. Than it's ok. For example, Harry Potter (I do like the books) - I was very disappointed when comparing the movie against the book. All of the actors were not as I would have imagined them. However, if you never read the books the movies at least deserve the "bearable" remark. But sorry - would be ridiculous from my point of view to get offended if it turned out that Daniel Radcliffe is dating Emma Watson and connect it to the fact that I was disappointed in their performance. What does that have to do with the merits of the movie? As far as The War of the Worlds is concerned, I am going to adopt the same approach and watch it as if there were no background. Otherwise I would miss on too much fun
posted by mymla |
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 tom cruise is a bitch...i want to see war of the worlds...oh the irony posted by Agent Zero |
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As far as I am concerned, Tom Cruise is a class act. It can't be easy to risk your reputation and career in standing against something as misunderstood and goonish as modern psychiatry, but what a blessing that someone so prominent has chosen to use his status as a force for good in this world. We need more people like Cruise on this planet. I salute you, Tom. posted by Thatgirl |
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Tom Cruise is a class prat. Thatgirl: It can't be easy to risk your reputation and career in standing against something as misunderstood and goonish as modern psychiatry Why can't it be easy to risk your career and reputation? It may be stupid, but it's certainly not difficult. The guy seems to think he's qualified to comment on such matters due to his Scientology training, does this really qualify him as an expert? I'm not saying that psychiarty is not without it's problems, huge ones at that. I wouldn't want to see something which is a science, albeit in it's infancy, replaced with the ramblings of some crooked sci-fi writer though. Thatgirl: what a blessing that someone so prominent has chosen to use his status as a force for good in this world. Hmmm. That seems to have backfired then. Tom gets a lot of stick for spouting his rubbish on an impressionable audience, but is there any evidence that anyone has actually taken any notice of him. It looks to me like all he has done is discredit and make a fool of himself, as well as make more people aware that Scientology is a dangerous cult. Almost all of the publicity I've witnessed on this subject has been negative for Tom and Scientology. posted by SamM |
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The time now is 24 May 2012, 16:32 php B.B. |