»Atheism - just another belief system«

Many people have misunderstood atheism as:

Denying all spirituality
Denying all meaning/purpose
Pessimistic
Incapable of accepting other religious beliefs

I don't understand why this view is so common. Maybe people would like to enlighten me? There appears to be a common feeling amongst evangelical Christians that all atheists are militaristic (ie. believe all religious beliefs to be harmful). Most atheists, while unwilling to accept a belief in God, are only critical of religions so far as their beliefs cause harm (as you would expect from any ordinary human being who is concerned about morality).

Atheists still have to consider the meaning of life just as any religion does. I, for one consider atheism to be a more positive world view than religion because:
(i) Atheists do not have no religious leaders or mythical figures who are considered 'spiritually pure', 'without sin', 'divine' or any other term which suggests perfection. For atheists every person has the potential to be greater than anyone has ever been before. Humanity has no boundaries in an atheist world view.

(ii) Atheists do not consider any values to be eternal. Nothing is fixed by the views of people in the past. For example some people have introduced a new concept of "speciesm". I do not personally subscribe to this concept and am not a vegetarian. However, while the religious might point out instances of animal sacrifice in their past to show the acceptability of meat-eating, the atheist's ability to accept moral views like speiciesm is limited by nothing but human reasoning.

(iii) Atheists do not believe that an afterlife is certain and generally presume that there is not one. This means that the current life has even more significance.

posted by fatpie42

"The beauty of the Superman came to me as a shadow. What are the gods to me now!"

in-my-opinion.org -> Religion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolves -> Religious & Philosophical Topics -> Atheism - just another belief system

Re: Atheism - just another belief system

fatpie42:

Most atheists, while unwilling to accept a belief in God, are only critical of religions so far as their beliefs cause harm (as you would expect from any ordinary human being who is concerned about morality).

Isn't morality a religious concept? That is, isn't the belief in principles of behavior which transcend natural life essentially implying that there are supernatural forces in the universe, or gods if you will?
This is a question that Nietszche addressed in the The Genealogy of Morals.
Maybe "ethics" or "law" are compatible with atheism, but I see morality as alien to it.

posted by holy_of_holies

Re: Atheism - just another belief system

fatpie42:

I don't understand why this view is so common. Maybe people would like to enlighten me? There appears to be a common feeling amongst evangelical Christians that all atheists are militaristic (ie. believe all religious beliefs to be harmful). Most atheists, while unwilling to accept a belief in God, are only critical of religions so far as their beliefs cause harm (as you would expect from any ordinary human being who is concerned about morality).

Well, just go back to the "God does not exist. Only for irresponsibles«"-thread and see for yourself...
I consider myself an atheist and I certainly don't agree with much of what stinkz says, but still I think the atheist side comes across as pretty intolerant in this thread...

fatpie42:

I, for one consider atheism to be a more positive world view than religion because...

Hm,... I have to say sometimes I envy those who are deeply spiritual (not the followers of dogmatic believes, though), because they have found a purpose and personal peace in their believe.
I believe there is much truth to the concept of the eastern philosophies, that our life is suffering, caused by attachments.
We may experience many happy moments due to people we love, success, a nice home etc., but most of these things are transient and we live in fear of loosing them.
Whereas when you can loosen the bonds of those attachments and find yourself a greater, an everlasting good, you can break free from many fears... and you can deal much better with moments of loss and suffering in this life.

In that respect, I cannot agree with your assumption that atheism is a more positive worldview.

Also, I don't believe that a religious worldview inevitably imposes boundaries an people; devotion to a God does not necessarily bind you,... it can as well free you from much suffering.
But, I believe, people do suffer from the boundaries through what people have made of their religions,... intolerance, dogma.

fatpie42:

Atheists do not believe that an afterlife is certain and generally presume that there is not one. This means that the current life has even more significance.

Hm,...I don't see how a believe in an afterlife would confine the importance of this life,… but if something goes wrong in this life, or in moments of loss and suffering, you have something to hold on to, if you believe in an afterlife.

I’ve travelled a lot and I’ve been to places of great poverty and oppression,…. and I’ve learned that the harder a peoples' lives, the more they need their religion to hold on to.

posted by tozy

tozy:

fatpie42:

Atheists do not believe that an afterlife is certain and generally presume that there is not one. This means that the current life has even more significance.

Well, I have seen first hand that many xians attribute greater importance to the afterlife than to this life. i.e. They need to convert people to xianity so they can go to Heaven. Case closed. They don't take an effort to make this life better for that person or themselves. Also the attitude of "well, there is so much sin here and I can't do anything about it... It will be much better when I don't have to worry about it in heaven".

I have heard from many xian sources that they place greater importance on heaven than on this life. Now, whether that is a majority or not is debatable.

posted by volonteshiva

Nietzsche

holy_of_holies:

This is a question that Nietszche addressed in the The Genealogy of Morals.
Maybe "ethics" or "law" are compatible with atheism, but I see morality as alien to it.

In Twilight Of The Idols Nietzsche describes Kant's system of morality as "cruel". Those are not the words of someone who does not believe in right and wrong. It is not right and wrong which Nietzsche denies (which is what we normally link with morality concerning just actions). It is good and evil which Nietzsche denies (the religious morality or 'slave morality' as Nietzsche calls it).

posted by fatpie42

fatpie42:

holy_of_holies:

This is a question that Nietszche addressed in the The Genealogy of Morals.
Maybe "ethics" or "law" are compatible with atheism, but I see morality as alien to it.

Yeah, I haven't read that. That was just my opinion about atheism, not Nietszche's, I should have made that more clear. I don't like morality at all. I think it's a totally bogus way to run a state, i.e. "you should do this or that." How about, "You will do this or that, or you will not recieve any of the benefits of citizenship." Morality is what religious people use to guilt people like me into believing the garbage they spew. They say, "You should not have an abortion." How about, "If you infringe on another citizen's rights by trying to prevent them from having an abortion, you will theretofore no longer be a citizen of the state until such time as the people see fit to include you again."

posted by holy_of_holies

fatpie42:

In Twilight Of The Idols Nietzsche describes Kant's system of morality as "cruel".

Uff, is there any comic version out? Who's gonna read such stuff?

posted by knn

knn:

Uff, is there any comic version out? Who's gonna read such stuff?

posted by The ONEder Man

i'm still waiting for fatpie to tell us what athiests believe, instead of what they don't believe Aaah, is there anything better than to post here and to drink something

posted by The ONEder Man

Atheism: the view that concepts such as God, angels, afterlives, sin, etc. are terms we cannot talk about meaningfully (unless they are used metaphorically) so we should give up on them (at least talking about them literally anyway). This allows us to focus on 'real' things and to allow for a more positive, reasoned outlook on life. Smile

posted by fatpie42

The ONEder Man:

i'm still waiting for fatpie to tell us what athiests believe, instead of what they don't believe Aaah, is there anything better than to post here and to drink something

Atheism according to dictionary.com:
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

There are two forms of atheism, spiritual and non-spiritual.

Spiritual atheism is a nondual view, believing that there is an underlying spirit reality to our existence, but not a personal God. This includes nondual Hinduism and Buddhism.

Non-spiritual atheists believe that there is no God or spirit reality, and that everything can be explained scientifically.
Those things we cannot explain scientifically now, we may one day be able to, based on better knowledge and methods, unless... they exeed the possibilities of our species.

posted by tozy

tozy:

Spiritual atheism is a nondual view, believing that there is an underlying spirit reality to our existence, but not a personal God.

Can you elaborate on this? Never heard of it before.

posted by sangu

There are many aspects and branches to spiritual atheism; I can give you a short (and - naturally - incomplete) description of the Hindu approach, which I am most familiar with:

“What is a human being? A body? Certainly, but anything else? A personality that includes mind, memories, and propensities that have derived from a unique trajectory of life-experiences? This, too, but anything more? Some say no, but Hinduism disagrees.
Underlying the human self and animating it is a reservoir of being that never dies, is never exhausted, and is unrestricted in consciousness and bliss. This infinite centre of every life, this hidden self or Atman, is no less than Brahman. Body, personality and Atman-Brahman – a human self is not completely accounted for until all three are noted.
But if this is true and we really are infinite in our being, why is this not apparent? Why do we not act accordingly? “I don’t feel particularly unlimited today,” one may be prompted to observe. “And my neighbour – I haven’t noticed his behaviour to be exactly Godlike.”
How can the Hindu hypothesis withstand the evidence of the morning newspaper?

The answer, say the Hindus, lies in the depth at which the Eternal is buried under the almost impenetrable mass of distractions, false assumptions, and self-regarding instincts that comprise our surface selves. A lamp can be covered with dust and dirt to the point of obscuring its light completely. The problem life poses for the human self is to cleanse the dross of its being to the point where its infinite centre can shine forth in full display.”
Huston Smith “The World's Religion”

According to nondual Hinduism, Brahman is pure consciousness, beyond any attributes; not unlike the Christian Holy spirit, but without God and Christ, the other two aspects of the Christian trinity.
Brahman is our true identity, the underlying reality of our existence.
So the path of the nondual spiritual thinker is not the path towards a God, the path of becoming; rather it is the path of realizing,... who and what you are: not a separate entity, but one with the all.

posted by tozy

Oooh I am very interested in this comparison between atheism and Hinduism (if that is what it is). One problem I would have with it is that it presumes that there the divine nature of man which is clouded is meant to be the same for everyone.

As an atheist I consider a virtue of mankind to be its diversity. People do not have just one goal and they are not 'all the same at heart'. People are drastically different and individuality is a blessing, not a problem. We are not meant to be submitting to a single entity (sounds like the Borg from Star Trek :s), but affirming ourselves as individuals.

Please tell me more though. This is an interesting way of looking at things.

posted by fatpie42

fatpie42:

Oooh I am very interested in this comparison between atheism and Hinduism (if that is what it is)

I wouldn't call it a comparison; rather I'd say that nondual Hinduism IS atheism, if you define atheism as the denial of a God.
There are other (more popular) branches in Hinduism which call Brahman also God, though he is very different from the Christian God.
Brahman in its different aspects and interpretations is a very complex topic and worth countless pages of reading...

fatpie42:

One problem I would have with it is that it presumes that there the divine nature of man which is clouded is meant to be the same for everyone.
As an atheist I consider a virtue of mankind to be its diversity. People do not have just one goal and they are not 'all the same at heart'. People are drastically different and individuality is a blessing, not a problem. We are not meant to be submitting to a single entity (sounds like the Borg from Star Trek :s), but affirming ourselves as individuals.

I agree with you about mankind's diversity, but being one doesn't mean that we have to be one in our thinking and our lifestyle.
According to Hinduism, being one with the all doesn't exclude individualism, rather it includes it.
Why?
Because this universe is a manifestation of Brahman; everything is an aspect of Brahman.
The Hindu scriptures give countless descriptions of what Brahman is, unable to really put the concept into words; but the three most relevant attributes are: infinite being, infinite consciousness, infinite bliss.

An often used metaphor for the relationship between the individual and Brahman/the all are a wave and the ocean.
The “normal” human being is one wave; and it is aware only of the wave (finite consciousness). The enlightened being is still a wave, but it is aware of the whole ocean, of which it is a part (infinite consciousness). This awareness makes the individual one with the all.

posted by tozy

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