»USA vs. Britain«
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 holy_of_holies: Also, when I go to Europe I am disgusted by the emphasis on Christian solidarity I see there on that continent where someone as brilliant as Leonard da Vinci was forced to paint pictures of Hebrew peasants in royal finery just to feed himself. Imagine what your people could have done without their sorry "faith". Then Europe might have earned its place in people's hearts instead of digging a hole in the chest of the world with a bayonet and planting a cross there. OK...for some reason I sense an accusation here...I don't think you're striking the right tone here... GP: The question now is...do you look back on those dark moments and decide to pay the penance for the "sins of the fathers?" Or do you acknoledge those dark moments and make the necessary strides to ensure that they won't happen again? Thank you, GP. For some reason these wise words haven't stopped these foolish "you" and "us" accusations. posted by nocturnal_anonymous |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsPolitics and Crime (Assorted topics)USA vs. Britain |
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These arguments/statements all cancel each other out. UK: GP: obviously, the UK's monarchy system is working for them as it's been in place for all these years w/almost no public outcry for change. US: holy_of_holies: And also, I think if you believe that two hundred plus years of lawful succession of the head of state is not a history, I think it's time for a civics lesson... UK: fatpie42: What you've pointed out is that, once you go back earlier than the second world war, Britain has more than its fair share of atrocities US: tozy: Americans have a history of colonialism! It is a history of massacres, So please. I understand this is IMO.org, but...oh whatever, I don't know what I'm trying to acheive. I think that tennis ball that hit me in the temple yesterday did its job. fatpie42: Oh and if you look at Marl64's links you'll notice that we are only patriotic when we have to be. Generally we hate our country. Not your actual country, but the leaders, perhaps? _____ Gosh, if this post were read by CRAPSY, I'd be in the gutter by now. posted by nocturnal_anonymous |
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 fatpie42: Oh and if you look at Marl64's links you'll notice that we are only patriotic when we have to be. Generally we hate our country. Not your actual country, but the leaders, perhaps? [/quote] Nope, everything about our country: The leaders The way the country is run The way it's cold or raining (or both) all the time The parts of our history concerning the empire The way people's jobs are run by managers who have no conception of "job satisfaction" or "motivation". The way that Big Brother gets series after series because there are so many morons in our country who watch it. The way 'boy racers' drive around with their car-stereo turned up so high that you can hear the awful r'n'b and trance music better outside the car than the driver can inside. The way the country seems to be engulfed with chavs to the point where 'chav' is practically a real term in the English language rather than a slang terms for morons who can't dress properly or act like human beings. - There are few things left to feel proud of and we recognise this and we cling to those things like superglue. Americans, on the other hand, seem to think that they are some kind of land of the free where the sun shines out of their arses - while their country is suffering from: an epidemic of obesity high levels of gun crime Christian fundamentalism Scientific opression to the point where experts are not allowed to say that global warming is real and now, it seems, xenophobia where people are denied the right to call their chips "french fries" and politicians gladly call the most powerful nations in Europe (France and Germany) "Old Europe". holy of holies: The people the British value most - at least by the amount of attention and priveliege they get - are the worst enemies of Britain who ever walked the island. Their whole system of thought is based on class and rivalry, whereas American thought is based on consensus. Who are you talking about? I wasn't aware that we valued anyone. We hate our politicians, ridicule anyone in a position of power, and have an unhealthy obsession with celebrities (who are also often ridiculed). Maybe that's why we like the Queen so much. She doesn't have any control over anything! posted by fatpie42 |
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nocturnal_anonymous: US: tozy: Americans have a history of colonialism! It is a history of massacres, So please. I understand this is IMO.org, but...oh whatever, I don't know what I'm trying to acheive. I think that tennis ball that hit me in the temple yesterday did its job. You know, that's the problem with quoting: Even if you don't change the words,... just by ripping something out of the context, you can change it's meaning profoundly. For that reason let me put it back into the context: tozy: Americans have a history of colonialism! It is a history of massacres, slavery, consciously manipulated epidemics among the natives, broken treaties, forced sterilisations, child kidnapping... shall I go on?
I know,... I am being polemic,... and as a German I should certainly refrain from accusing other nations of crimes against mankind. The point I am trying to make is that we can neither be proud of our history, nor can we be made personally responsible for it. It was not our doing! We just happen to be born in this country. All we can do is acknowledge the past, learn from it, accept the responsibility we have inherited from our ancestors, and be happy (or not) to live in a country that enables us to live a more or less good life. And we can do our little part to shape the condition and future of our country. Back later. posted by tozy |
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fatpie42: Scientific opression to the point where experts are not allowed to say that global warming is real
and now, it seems, xenophobia where people are denied the right to call their chips "french fries" and politicians gladly call the most powerful nations in Europe (France and Germany) "Old Europe". Okay as for the "scientific oppression"- meaning as you say that scientists are "not allowed" to assert things - that's just not the case...you know that's not true in Britain or America, Fatpie, so I'm not going to insult your intelligence by arguing with you about it. Xenophobia of politicians? The people who say those and other things are not even politicians anymore, meaning they are not men of politics. They are warlords and will say anything they can to advance their failed agenda of unilateralism. They have no belief in America or democracy whatsoever. So they are not representative of our ideals at all. fatpie42: holy of holies: The people the British value most - at least by the amount of attention and priveliege they get - are the worst enemies of Britain who ever walked the island. Their whole system of thought is based on class and rivalry, whereas American thought is based on consensus. Who are you talking about? I wasn't aware that we valued anyone. We hate our politicians, ridicule anyone in a position of power, and have an unhealthy obsession with celebrities (who are also often ridiculed). Maybe that's why we like the Queen so much. She doesn't have any control over anything! Yes but the queen is a symbol of something I for one despise due to my upbringing and experience, just as tozy may be put off by the American emphasis on nationalism. By writing that your people "like the Queen so much" you have presented evidence in favor of the argument you set out to disprove. The queen has never done a thing for Britain and yet she is the head of state, albeit a figurehead. What kind of message does this send to young people, immigrants, etc.? It tells them that, no matter what they do, they will never be as good or valuable as this inbred old hag who is kept like a prize pony at taxpayers' expense. Thus I say again, the British have no basis for being patriotic due to the union of church and state and the status of the aristocracy, among other things. Any nation can produce great people, including Nazi Germany, see Wernher von Braun ♣. But it stands to reason that if a nation relegates its greatest people into irrelevancy as Britain has done consistently, see Thomas Paine ♣, instead of allowing them to ascend to the highest levels of society, then it will always be ass backwards. Maybe eventually we will see a successful popular revolution in Britain, but until then, Britons wlll always be slaves to their Norman overlords. There is a certain type of American man or woman that seems to just loooove everything British; we call them anglophiles. They seem to be multiplying, and now one is president. The more people think that it would be cool if there were a King or Queen of America, the fewer people realize that, while we shouldn't hate the British, we should never want to be like them. For the simple reason that we don't want to end up in a similar situation to them, with our continental empire in ruins and everyone thinking all we can do is make cool movies. I don't think anyone who really considers the matter could believe that there is any comparison between Britain and America in terms of achievements...America wins, no contest. posted by holy_of_holies |
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1) The government only enlists experts who claim global warming is false in an attempt to ignore the problem. The government is also denying scientists the opportunity to do stem cell research. I am not insulting either of our intelligences by stating this! 2) Donald Rumsfeld is an elected American politician. If you decide to elect warlords that's your own lookout. 3) The queen may be a symbol for something you despise, but that is all she is "a symbol". However, she happens to be a symbol which supports many charities and supports many important event. Might I suggest that your upbringing and experience can go to hell if you think it is fair game to call her royal highness an 'old bag'! 4) We hardly have any of our aristocracy left. And in what way do we have a union of church and state other than the customary title of the queen as head of the church (remember it's only symbolic). The queen does not rule anything so it hardly links the church to the state does it? Now look at America where the president claims to have been put there by God and uses policies such as banning gay marriages and being tough on abortion to get himself elected! Not only do you swear "we are all one nation under God" in the mornings, but you do it to the American flag! What kind of hypocrasy is this! 5) BTW Thomas Paine is from the 18th Century! What on earth has he got to do with modern British politics? We have a democracy in this country. Most of us are of Norman blood in the south so what are you saying - we are our OWN overlords? We elected our members of parliament. 6) In Britain we are taught to respect others. Oh and we are also taught enough geography to find our own country on a map of the world. I listed tons of things wrong with our country and for some reason you've failed to name any! Our empire isn't in ruins - it doesn't exist anymore! However, the old members of our empire care enough to be involved in the commonwealth games. We think we can do a damn site more than make movies. What is special about our movies is that we don't have a multi-billion dollar industry here and yet we still produce movies which are thousands of times better than the crap Hollywood pumps out. What exactly is it which makes America great exactly? Is it the size or the number of executions per day? posted by fatpie42 |
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 Quote: Until Europe stops being hypnotized by the religious bunk about "peace and love" which is inculcated into the minds its people from birth, you make a bad mistake by asking about British patriotism then making this comment about Europeans...yes the majority of the EU countries endorse a less capitalistic and more socialistic approach to their politics...but Britain is not one of those countries...in fact it was the British who invented modern capitalism that america thrives on posted by the anomaly |
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fatpie42: 1) The government only enlists experts who claim global warming is false in an attempt to ignore the problem. The government is also denying scientists the opportunity to do stem cell research. I am not insulting either of our intelligences by stating this! You're switching terms, Fatpie; this a classic form of hedging. You said that in America scientists are "not allowed" to assert the existence of global warming, and I said that you were wrong about that. In fact, the consensus of the scientific community in America is that global warming is real. People who deny it are on the fringe. fatpie42: 2) Donald Rumsfeld is an elected American politician. If you decide to elect warlords that's your own lookout. Wrong! Rumsfeld, as Secretary of Defense was appointed by Bush. I don't understand why American civics is not taught in Britain. I have a basic understanding of the parliamentary sytem of government, and this is far less relevant to my life than the American Presidential Cabinet is to yours. And I don't vote for warlords in any event. fatpie42: 3) The queen may be a symbol for something you despise, but that is all she is "a symbol". However, she happens to be a symbol which supports many charities and supports many important event. Might I suggest that your upbringing and experience can go to hell if you think it is fair game to call her royal highness an 'old bag'! Old hag, old hag, her royal highness the old hag! Wouldn't the British just love it if they could send you to Hell for insulting their crusty, demented monarch! fatpie42: 4) We hardly have any of our aristocracy left. And in what way do we have a union of church and state other than the customary title of the queen as head of the church (remember it's only symbolic). The queen does not rule anything so it hardly links the church to the state does it? Well your flag is a big cross, and The Church of England is the officially established Christian church in England fatpie42: Now look at America where the president claims to have been put there by God and uses policies such as banning gay marriages and being tough on abortion to get himself elected! Not only do you swear "we are all one nation under God" in the mornings, but you do it to the American flag! What kind of hypocrasy is this! Everything you point out in that paragraph is hypocritical, but this says nothing about the American institution of government. It just means a lot of morons have moved to this country and ruined it, and a lot of the conservative brand of moron came from Europe. fatpie42: 5) BTW Thomas Paine is from the 18th Century! What on earth has he got to do with modern British politics? We have a democracy in this country. Most of us are of Norman blood in the south so what are you saying - we are our OWN overlords? We elected our members of parliament. No you are not a democracy, you are a constitutional monarchy. That means in your brand of government, some people are treated as inherently superior to others. Your modern parliament is obviously a joke because it hasn't been able to topple your tyrant since the seventeenth century, and then the people imported a new tyrant because they felt bad... fatpie42: 6) In Britain we are taught to respect others. Oh and we are also taught enough geography to find our own country on a map of the world. I listed tons of things wrong with our country and for some reason you've failed to name any! Our empire isn't in ruins - it doesn't exist anymore! However, the old members of our empire care enough to be involved in the commonwealth games. We think we can do a damn site more than make movies. What is special about our movies is that we don't have a multi-billion dollar industry here and yet we still produce movies which are thousands of times better than the crap Hollywood pumps out. I don't give a flip for respect. Respect is for wusses who can't question authority or stand up to oppression. You "respect" your queen and your landed aristocracy because you are brainwashed by them. fatpie42: What exactly is it which makes America great exactly? Is it the size or the number of executions per day? I never said America was greater than any other country, and I don't think I ever said that America was great at all. But we are and have always been more democratic than you. Why we are more democratic than you is an existential question, however, there is the fact that we actually have a constitution and a declaration of national soverignty that we defend, while in Britain you defend the honor of your bottle-blonde "princess" who couldn't keep her knees together...and wait for the day when her unfaithful husband will ascend to rule over you... posted by holy_of_holies |
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the anomaly: Quote: Until Europe stops being hypnotized by the religious bunk about "peace and love" which is inculcated into the minds its people from birth, you make a bad mistake by asking about British patriotism then making this comment about Europeans...yes the majority of the EU countries endorse a less capitalistic and more socialistic approach to their politics...but Britain is not one of those countries...in fact it was the British who invented modern capitalism that america thrives on Or the modern capitalism that is destroying us and eroding our foundations...but that idea - that you can oppose capitalism and not be a communist - must not be taught in your schools. Jeffersonian Democrats do not support the massive gap between rich and poor which could easily be rectified by progressive taxation of the wealthiest members of society. posted by holy_of_holies |
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Quote: you can oppose capitalism and not be a communist indeed you can...its called socialism...which is a very marginalised political belief in Britain but less so in most of Europe hence the "peace and love" comment isn't really all that applicable to British nationalism posted by the anomaly |
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the anomaly: Quote: you can oppose capitalism and not be a communist indeed you can...its called socialism...which is a very marginalised political belief in Britain but less so in most of Europe hence the "peace and love" comment isn't really all that applicable to British nationalism Socialism is a de facto precursor to revolutionary communism, which derives from the cult created by Karl Marx. Jefferson proposed progressive taxation long before Marx was writing books.. As for "peace and love", listen to your countryman Fatpie42..he's telling me that it is a British teaching to respect others...that's fine, but I would hate to think that someone in Washington was telling me to do anything like that...that has nothing to do with government and everything to do with choice... I take the idea that the British are convinced that morality is somehow a good thing and an absolute standard from my observations of your country from without, but I stand by it..the absolute morality trend is a bizarre belief, and one that continues to infect Americans. posted by holy_of_holies |
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Quote: As for "peace and love", listen to your countryman Fatpie42..he's telling me that it is a British teaching to respect others never got taught that in school...i got maths instead...damn capitalists 
your socialism teaching must also have shown you that before the revolution can take place then their must be global capitalism first...that's the general consensus among socialism( as a subject not as a political belief) is it not i remember watching a political show where a capitalist was debating with a wannabe communist and the point was put that there has never been a truly communist country...no the USSR or China or North Korea or Cuba...they all tried and they all fall apart under the same fault...the factor of human greed posted by the anomaly |
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the anomaly: Quote: As for "peace and love", listen to your countryman Fatpie42..he's telling me that it is a British teaching to respect others never got taught that in school...i got maths instead...damn capitalists
your socialism teaching must also have shown you that before the revolution can take place then their must be global capitalism first...that's the general consensus among socialism( as a subject not as a political belief) is it not i remember watching a political show where a capitalist was debating with a wannabe communist and the point was put that there has never been a truly communist country...no the USSR or China or North Korea or Cuba...they all tried and they all fall apart under the same fault...the factor of human greed Yes but the greed is worse under unchecked and unenlightened capitalism, and historically the empires that have fallen the farthest have been those who accentuated the differences between citizens instead of their relative sameness...that is, Imperial Rome, Byzantine Constantinople, and postwar Britain all collapsed under the weight of the people in the upper socioeconomic tier...that was what gave the workers in the outskirts the impetus to overthrow their wealthy invaders... in this respect I differ from a lot of people who study history because I don't see religions like communism as the major destructive factor in empires; I see them as false hopes, and that which causes suffering rather than alleviates it, but they didn't cause the Fall of Rome; that was just bad judgement on the part of the rulers... posted by holy_of_holies |
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[quote="holy_of_holies"] You're switching terms, Fatpie; this a classic form of hedging. You said that in America scientists are "not allowed" to assert the existence of global warming, and I said that you were wrong about that. In fact, the consensus of the scientific community in America is that global warming is real. People who deny it are on the fringe. Then how come the American government's 'top scientists' think global warming is bunk? Sounds to be like your actual 'top scientists' are being suppressed in favour of those on the fringe. holy_of_holies: Wrong! Rumsfeld, as Secretary of Defense was appointed by Bush. My bad. Sorry, I thought you had a democracy in your country. I've no idea why they teach you about the British parliament. You obviously aren't taught about it that well if you think the queen has any control over it. fatpie42: 3) The queen may be a symbol for something you despise, but that is all she is "a symbol"... Might I suggest that your upbringing and experience can go to hell if you think it is fair game to call her royal highness an 'old bag'! You are only insulting a symbol. But I still don't understand why you are insulting an old philanthropist who is brought out on special occasions (especially those commemorating the war, during which she was a big morale booster). holy of holies: Well your flag is a big cross, and The Church of England is the officially established Christian church in England What is your point? Of course it was officially established. It was established by King Henry VIII. You can't get more official than that! But it isn't really linked to the state anymore. Since Britain is far more secular than America I can't see how you can think you have a strong argument. fatpie42: and a lot of the conservative brand of moron came from Europe. (i) Most of the people in your country originally came from Europe (e.g. the founding fathers came to America from Plymouth - that's in Britain btw). (ii) Why should I care where they came from? Europe's a big place and Britain is only a small part of it. There's a big difference between continental Europe and Britain. holy of holies: fatpie42: 5) BTW Thomas Paine is from the 18th Century! What on earth has he got to do with modern British politics? We have a democracy in this country. Most of us are of Norman blood in the south so what are you saying - we are our OWN overlords? We elected our members of parliament. No you are not a democracy, you are a constitutional monarchy. That means in your brand of government, some people are treated as inherently superior to others. Your modern parliament is obviously a joke because it hasn't been able to topple your tyrant since the seventeenth century, and then the people imported a new tyrant because they felt bad... You are talking about the civil war. At that point in our history one tyrant toppled another tyrant. Oliver Cromwell toppled Charles I. Oliver Cromwell then set up Britain's first and only theocracy where Puritan values were forced upon the country. (This included not being allowed to have a happy celebration at Easter because it would be celebrating Jesus' death on cross  ) Oliver Cromwell entitled himself, not King, but Lord Protector. Thus the phrase appeared: "Lord protect us from Protectors".
Eventually we insisted that we have the king back. King Charles II who had been in exile was called back into the country, but his powers were greatly lessened and the powers of the monarchy have been continually lessened since. It would not be a big step now to remove the monarchy altogether, but we do not do so because (i) the monarchy increases our country's tourism and (ii) it is one of the few pieces of tradition we have left. I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand our country's political system at all. I don't see how blaming me for not knowing about yours is fair. I've never shown an interest in your country's politics so far as they do not affect me. fatpie42: ]I never said America was greater than any other country, and I don't think I ever said that America was great at all. But we are and have always been more democratic than you. Why we are more democratic than you is an existential question, however, there is the fact that we actually have a constitution and a declaration of national soverignty that we defend, while in Britain you defend the honor of your bottle-blonde "princess" who couldn't keep her knees together...and wait for the day when her unfaithful husband will ascend to rule over you... I want you to look at this sentence and understand it properly: The monarchy does not rule us! No one in this country respects the aristocracy. The aristocracy has been slowly disintegrating over the past century. The only reason we have a monarchy and an aristocracy at all is because our history stretches back to before the enlightenment where democracy was first envisioned. Our country is more secular than America and, if the claims concerning the election before last are true (just supposing), then we are more democratic as well. As for defending the honour of Princess Diana, how exactly did we do that (until she died)? If I remember correctly, our way of "honouring" her was to send the tabloids out to get incriminating pictures of her. I personally don't read the tabloids, but even I couldn't help but notice that for a long while every single one of them had an article damning the "outrageous" exploits of Princess Di on the cover. Please just give it a rest. You entitled this thread "I don't understand" and now you are trying to pretend you know more than me about my own country. posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: Please just give it a rest. You entitled this thread "I don't understand" and now you are trying to pretend you know more than me about my own country. Yeah whatever. This thread may need to be moved into the neverending category. I will "never never never never never quit" - Winston Spencer Churchill. But that last post is laughable...of course I don't know much about your insular little society...except that it is possessed by a greater evil than all the Nazi's and communists it claims to oppose; just look at the borders of the Victorian empire and you will see the most genocidal nation-state of them all...All you have done in this thread is lash out at the US and regurgitate some facts...but that's okay...that's your country's modus operandi when it comes to dealing with your rebellious former colonies. posted by holy_of_holies |
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The time now is 12 February 2012, 20:57 php B.B. |