»USA vs. Britain«
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fatpie42: (i) Most of the people in your country originally came from Europe (e.g. the founding fathers came to America from Plymouth - that's in Britain btw). Wrong again...those people from Plymouth were pilgrims, not founders. The founders were those who founded the country, meaning declared and defended its independence and then created a new system government. They were mostly of Anglo-Celtic descent and there's nothing wrong with that...I'm not a racist. But I say again that the American Revolution is not properly taught in your country...that's why your country is so backwards. The British seem to think that they are still the center of the world...news flash: you have been marginalized and are now just a whiny little people on a rock in the ocean, waiting to be conquered...would that we had let you alone for a few more years in WWII to prove how great your democracy was...or better yet, come in and destroyed your monarch's palace like the British destroyed our presidential residence in the 1812 War... then let Hitler deal with you. Unfortunately our leaders and media got all sentimental about your people...although the US effort in WWII was fought with the ulterior motive of dismantling the British empire...(that's why Britain lost its empire: because of the US and its alliances with Britain's empire's enemies)...so maybe FDR wasn't all that bad after all. posted by holy_of_holies |
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| in-my-opinion.orgPoliticsPolitics and Crime (Assorted topics)USA vs. Britain |
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 Pilgrims, founders, whatever. They were the first settlers to start what is now american society. I always thought the US troops in WWII were as good as useless and your conspiracy theory stating that they collapsed an empire which (having fought the second world war) we couldn't afford to run anymore anyway, doesn't change my opinion. Could you PLEASE explain what is wrong with my country? You still haven't told me! posted by fatpie42 |
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[quote="fatpie42"] fatpie42: America is suffering from:
an epidemic of obesity high levels of gun crime Christian fundamentalism Scientific opression to the point where experts are not allowed to say that global warming is real and now, it seems, xenophobia where people are denied the right to call their chips "french fries" and politicians gladly call the most powerful nations in Europe (France and Germany) "Old Europe". posted by fatpie42 |
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fatpie42: Could you PLEASE explain what is wrong with my country? You still haven't told me! fatpie42: I always thought the US troops in WWII were as good as useless In your own words, that is what is wrong with your country...the American troops were inexperienced and unprepared, but this kind of calumny about the people who died to give you freedom is inexcusable. I almost never agree when I hear American soldiers say "Freedom ain't free" etc...for Americans, it's a birthright...but for the British, it really ain't...they inflicted their tyranny on the world for longer than my country has been in existence, and then looked to the people they terrorized to save them from their enemies...now we are fighting a war in which once again we seek to clean up a mess (Iraq) created by Britain...and what a surprise when the terror you inflict on your enemies comes home to you...Britain has betrayed its democratic aspirations (again) and become the lapdog of wealthy American conservative warmongers... posted by holy_of_holies |
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fatpie42: Then how come the American government's 'top scientists' think global warming is bunk? Sounds to be like your actual 'top scientists' are being suppressed in favour of those on the fringe. There is no such thing as a "top scientist" anymore...that is essentially a nondemocratic view of science and presupposes that fame must equal scientific merit. The fact that you think science is somehow being suppressed in America shows that you know nothing about (1) science and (2) America. And since when do we look to people like those in the Bush administration for scientific brilliance or even competence? You in Britain love your scientific stars (Stephen Hawking) who do nothing but enforce dogma on the world and do nothing to make it a better place...if Stephen Hawking told the British public they could regain their youth by drinking brake fluid they would all be dead now. So maybe the British headtrip about famous science is not so bad after all...if it keeps people like you out of scientific discourse. posted by holy_of_holies |
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fatpie42: Pilgrims, founders, whatever. They were the first settlers to start what is now american society. Classic. You are proud that you have little understanding of the history of the world's oldest democracy. I have two words for you Englishman: Leif Ericsson. posted by holy_of_holies |
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fatpie42: I always thought the US troops in WWII were as good as useless and your conspiracy theory stating that they collapsed an empire which (having fought the second world war) we couldn't afford to run anymore anyway, doesn't change my opinion. In his biography of John Maynard Keynes,Robert Skidelsky says the USA had three principal war aims in World War II: defeat of Japan, defeat of Germany, and defeat of the British Empire. This is not "my" theory Fatpie... posted by holy_of_holies |
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(i) I wasn't being unfair to people who died for my country. The people who died for my country were British. The Americans came into the war far too late to make any real difference. (ii) If your government does not support the majority opinion of the most accomplished scientists in your country and puts ridiculous limits on their research (e.g. refusing stem cell research), it might seem that they don't care about scientific progress when it doesn't aid their political agenda. (iii) Democracy existed long before America gained its independence so America is certainly NOT the world's oldest democracy - I can't believe I'm even having this conversation. (iv) You're telling me that Americans were trying to break apart the British Empire by allying with us? Well, actually that makes sense I guess. After the war America tried to blackmail Britain with their new atomic bomb capability. In answer to this Britain created the Hydrogen bomb which was far more powerful and thus were able to counter the blackmail. I never doubted that Americans were being tricky bastards during the war - it makes perfect sense. I think the conversation is drifting somewhat. I didn't think you were asking for a history of our countries. I thought you wanted to ask why we are patriotic. Surely THAT conversation ought to be about the here and now. Here and now we have a multi-cultural democracy to be proud of, while America has a nation of fat bastards and creationists. posted by fatpie42 |
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 Fatpie...I'm not going to join in w/HoH and continue w/this mudslinging. All am going to do is ask you a few questions... Have you ever taken the time to go across the pond and get to know the citizens of the U.S.? Have you even been to the U.S.? (And not the major cities...I'm talking about the small towns, the smaller, blue-collar cities, etc.) I mean, you seem to be such an authority on our country and our people. Surely you've taken the time to get to know the working class, the single-parents that work 3 jobs to feed their family, the individuals that have fought their way out of poverty to become a doctor, lawyer, or teacher. You would've had to with statements like this... fatpie42: Americans, on the other hand, seem to think that they are some kind of land of the free where the sun shines out of their arses How do you know that? That's not the way I feel or my wife feels...or my family...or my friends...or the majority of my community...etc. You're taking what you've read or what you see on TV and making up your mind on what the U.S. is all about. Granted, it's a high probability that you've meet/encountered some Americans in your country and judging from your statements in this tread and in numerous other ones, they were wankers. Well, I'm not going to say "sorry" for them...there's wankers in any country. What's sorry is that you've taken those experiences and written off our entire population. I have no problem w/your statements about my country...God knows we've been anything but perfect over the course of history. What bothers me is when you start making blanket statments about our people. For example, you and I have had a friendly relationship on this forum and have been able to have some very good debate/conversation...however, I get the feeling that if you and I were to meet in a pub, instead of a internet forum, you'd tell me to piss off (because I'm American) before you'd sit down and have a pint w/me. posted by GP |
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fatpie42: (i) I wasn't being unfair to people who died for my country. The people who died for my country were British. The Americans came into the war far too late to make any real difference. If this is the kind of crap they teach you in Britain, you are in even worse shape as a country than I thought. fatpie42: (ii) If your government does not support the majority opinion of the most accomplished scientists in your country and puts ridiculous limits on their research (e.g. refusing stem cell research), it might seem that they don't care about scientific progress when it doesn't aid their political agenda. Once again, you should not look to the Bush administration for scientific advice...plus you once again are hedging on this subject by switching terms...I never said the government cared about scientific progress unless it suits their agenda...all I said was the educated opinions of scientists are not being "suppressed".. fatpie42: (iii) Democracy existed long before America gained its independence so America is certainly NOT the world's oldest democracy - I can't believe I'm even having this conversation. However the fact remains that it is the oldest surviving democracy. Whatever you may be taught in your ungrateful little kingdom, this is the case. fatpie42: (iv) You're telling me that Americans were trying to break apart the British Empire by allying with us? Well, actually that makes sense I guess. After the war America tried to blackmail Britain with their new atomic bomb capability. In answer to this Britain created the Hydrogen bomb which was far more powerful and thus were able to counter the blackmail. I never doubted that Americans were being tricky bastards during the war - it makes perfect sense. Okay now you are getting into the realm of fantasy...you don't really believe what you are saying, do you? The first fusion bomb was tested by the United States in Operation Ivy on November 1, 1952, on Elugelab Island in the Enewetak (or Eniwetok) Atoll of the Marshall Islands, code-named "Mike". "Mike" used liquid deuterium as its fusion fuel and a large fission weapon as its trigger. fatpie42: Here and now we have a multi-cultural democracy to be proud of, while America has a nation of fat bastards and creationists. Do you think you're hurting me? I laugh when British people try to regain control of their former empire by casting aspersions on our national character...Nearly everything you have said in your post is demonstrably false; this may be the easiest debate I've ever gotten into! posted by holy_of_holies |
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 holy_of_holies: Leif Ericsson. Nah,he never landed. posted by Kupov |
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Kupov: holy_of_holies: Leif Ericsson. Nah,he never landed. What about the Vinland Sagas ♣ and the settlement at L'anse aux Meadows ♣? posted by holy_of_holies |
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 holy_of_holies: what do you think? Especially you English guys and gals... I think the thread title is misleading. Perhaps "Why I feel the British have nothing to be patriotic about"  holy_of_holies: ..the reason I like the US is not because of anything we've done, because we've obviously done as much bad as we have good in my opinion. It's more like I appreciate the idea of the country as a North American Empire of Liberty, and a democratic bastion for people from all over the world... Your patriotism is based on the ideals of your country and not it's history. Why can't the same be true of the British? 
You might feel Britiain was build on a Dictatorship, but then the U.S.A. originated from a country built on a dictatorship - same idea, different geography. posted by Marl64 |
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Marl64: You might feel Britiain was build on a Dictatorship, but then the U.S.A. originated from a country built on a dictatorship - same idea, different geography. Why do you think this Marl? The US didn't originate from Britain any more than we originated from Ireland or France or Africa or wherever...though like I said a lot of our systems of knowledge and law are British-derived...which is fine, whatever...This is one area I frequently disagree with my friend about...He likes to say that the USA's "forefathers" were British, but I say that's ridiculous...In what sense was Britain our originator except in the obvious role of antagonist for the first hundred odd years of our existence?... For the British to claim to have originated America is like a schoolyard bully claiming to be his victims' father...There are certainly a lot of achievements in British history, but few of them are in the area of democracy, which for me is the basis of all valid patriotism...But the fact remains that when a country is based as Britain is solely on some geographical, linguistic, or ethnic identity, then it's just not even a nation but rather a piece of land, a way of talking, or a mass of flesh. posted by holy_of_holies |
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Oh great, now the title's changed. Even though what happened earlier was that I said Britain was not bad for the reasons 'holy of holies' claimed and got drawn into some kind of "America is cool. Britain sucks!" conversation, now it looks like I was supposed to be attacking America all along (and doing a bad job of it too). I don't care about America. All I was trying to show above was that Britain was as good if not better than America under most, if not all, the categories 'holy of holies' was looking at. posted by fatpie42 |
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The time now is 12 February 2012, 20:41 php B.B. |