»USA vs. Britain«

So my best friend is an Englishman living in America and we had beers tonight, and we talked about the London bombings a little..but all night I kept wanting to ask him why he is so patriotic...loves England, the royals, etc...(and he is very pro-American too, applying for citizenship, etc)...but the reason I like the US is not because of anything we've done, because we've obviously done as much bad as we have good in my opinion. It's more like I appreciate the idea of the country as a North American Empire of Liberty, and a democratic bastion for people from all over the world, even though there are plenty of Americans who would love to destroy liberty to promote their own leftist/rightist partisan agenda...but to me, the thing I don't understand about Britain is it's built on a dictatorship of heredity...I know that a lot of our systems of knowledge and law come from Britain, but still I think the British have not fully accepted even a democracy of equality among male landowners like the Athenian democracy...and of course this is one of the models the Founders of the US used to shape our Constitution...
From what I can tell, another thing I don't get about Britain is why they don't teach kids about the American Revolution as a good thing ...it's almost like they still resent it or something. Like kids have any clue how important democracy is when compared to dictatorship. I think British kids should learn the American Revolution the way our kids here in the American south learn the American Civil War...one side was totally correct in a political sense and the other side was totally wrong in every sense. I am troubled by the very idea that some of our British friends still like to think of the colonial era as a "difference of opinion" or even worse, a "clash of cultures". And of course the British have their amen corner of apologists here in America who long for an American empire like the British one (read: Bush family!) But still, to me, there is just no comparison between the British Empire and what the US is doing now in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, and a few other places. The Empire was worse...way worse...and a lot of the problems in modern Israel, Iraq, etc. go back to the British colonial era if not the Crusades (which is another thing I don't get: why is Richard Lionheart a hero? Isn't he like the British version of Custer or something?)
Finally, one time I heard a BBC broadcaster refer to Thomas Jefferson as the man "who wrote the American Constitution"...and if you have to look that up to know what is wrong with that statement, you don't know enough American history.
Okay, enough ranting, what do you think? Especially you English guys and gals...

posted by holy_of_holies

in-my-opinion.org -> Politics -> Politics and Crime (Assorted topics) -> USA vs. Britain

I don't know if the people here are representative, but you can get some ideas from these threads.

IMO → I hate alot about Great Britain

IMO → Perfect country = NOT BRITAIN!!

IMO → UK Political System

I learned something new, I guess

posted by Marl64

I still don't get it :(

Why is it so important to love the people who live in your country? I don't love most Americans...literally I could count on my fingers the number of people I love in America...but still I like the principles of the country, so I try to talk America up when I talk to people from countries that are still kind of...well...ass backwards. Because I think one of the major assumptions people make about rural or semirural America is that it's backwards...but to me having a QUEEN? Helloooo? THAT's backwards. And having to always say how much you love your countrymen...that's way backwards...and finally, having an OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF ENGLAND? Way backwards. What's a little inbreeding in Appalachia compared to that?

posted by holy_of_holies

The C of E was created by the royal family. King Henry 8 wanted to get divorced, but his religon wouldnt let him. Anyway for having a Royal Family is just an old tridittion and is what makes us different.

posted by Deeindamatrix

Um... would you mind not calling us a dictatorship? We actually elected our PM (goodness knows why).

We love our country because many people from a more patriotic era fought to protect it from the Nazis. Also we have a real culture and history. It is hard not to get caught up in that.

Personally I don't understand American patriotism. Americans can't be proud of their history. America doesn't have any history! Americans can't feel proud of their culture. Without any history there can't really be any unified culture either. Americans don't seem to think that patriotism has anything to do with honouring their ancestors (after all, how many "American" ancestors could they possibly have?), and instead seem to just praise themselves for being American (as if they earnt it!).

What is backwards about having a royalty? Americans are more obsessed with our royal family than most of the British are (the same goes for Shakespeare's plays for some absurd reason). Many people around the world are Anglican Christians so our national church must be doing something right (maybe it is because they aren't as bigoted as the current pope?). We certainly aren't forced to respect our countrymen - and we also don't go psycho when someone decides to burn a flag in protest...

posted by fatpie42

"The beauty of the Superman came to me as a shadow. What are the gods to me now!"

Oh and if you look at Marl64's links you'll notice that we are only patriotic when we have to be. Generally we hate our country.

Today was a good day - it didn't blooming rain for once!

posted by fatpie42

fatpie42:

Americans can't be proud of their history. America doesn't have any history!

Not entirely true!
Americans have a history of colonialism! It is a history of massacres, slavery, consciously manipulated epidemics among the natives, broken treaties, forced sterilisations, child kidnapping... shall I go on?
I know,... I am being polemic,... and as a German I should certainly refrain from accusing other nations of crimes against mankind.
The point I am trying to make is that we can neither be proud of our history, nor can we be made personally responsible for it. It was not our doing! We just happen to be born in this country.
All we can do is acknowledge the past, learn from it, accept the responsibility we have inherited from our ancestors, and be happy (or not) to live in a country that enables us to live a more or less good life.
And we can do our little part to shape the condition and future of our country.

As a post WWII German, I have a hard time with any patriotism. In light of our country's Nazi history, we have been educated to be critical of everything, and suspicious of any form of nationalism in particular.
Every time I visit the US, I have a hard time understanding the constant presence and use of the American flag and anthem in your daily life, even in school,... and the constant emphasising of the greatness of your nation (no comparison to the little patriotism I have experienced over in the UK)

Friends of mine were in Washington on July 4th. They couldn't believe what the were seeing. In their eyes, the American patriotism and nationalism were unbelievable,.. and frightening!

Americans say their nation is the greatest democracy.
A true democracy involves not only freedom, but also knowledge, enabling the individual to be critical. How can a country be the greatest democracy, if it’s media are controlled by a few and money can buy almost everything? The opinion of the voter is so easily being manipulated….

posted by tozy

But your nation would all gather together if you were subjected to something like the London bombings right? I think that Germans and the British are probably pretty similar when it comes to national pride.

What you've pointed out is that, once you go back earlier than the second world war, Britain has more than its fair share of atrocities - and no doubt a few during the war too, but history is written by the winners (though it makes the clever decision not to do them to its own people on the British mainland). Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of British history knows that they have plenty to be ashamed of (e.g. those of us who have watched the movie "Ghandi").

Besides - America doesn't have any history (unless you are a native Indian and I don't think they've been able to write much of it down). Calling our royalty 'backwards' is easy for those whose country had only just been discovered when our first Queen Elizabeth was making sure our country was recognised and respected. The only thing that makes us keep the monarchy is that it is an important part of our heritage. A heritage that America is blatantly jealous of (hence the American people mourning the death of OUR princess!).

posted by fatpie42

fatpie42:

But your nation would all gather together if you were subjected to something like the London bombings right?

Sure, but standing together in times of a threat doesn't necessarily have to do with national pride, does it?

fatpie42:

I think that Germans and the British are probably pretty similar when it comes to national pride.

I can't give you a qualified statement on this, but my personal opinion is that we are not.
We Germans are constantly being reminded of our recent history,.. by ourselves and by others. It overshadows much of our older history.
This doesn't mean that Germans don't like their country, but national pride... most of us are suspisious when it comes to that...

fatpie42:

What you've pointed out is that, once you go back earlier than the second world war, Britain has more than its fair share of atrocities

Doesn't almost every nation have dark moments in their past?

fatpie42:

but history is written by the winners

...not always "luckily", right?

fatpie42:

Besides - America doesn't have any history (unless you are a native Indian and I don't think they've been able to write much of it down).

The fact that it hasn't been written down (and that we are not aware of much of what has been, due partly to the destructions done by our own ancestors) doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

fatpie42:

Calling our royalty 'backwards' is easy for those whose country had only just been discovered when our first Queen Elizabeth was making sure our country was recognised and respected. The only thing that makes us keep the monarchy is that it is an important part of our heritage. A heritage that America is blatantly jealous of (hence the American people mourning the death of OUR princess!).

posted by tozy

fatpie42:

Besides - America doesn't have any history

I guess I need some clarification on this statement. IMO, your history is made up of all the happenings and experiences from the past...both good and bad. Anything that has taken place at any given time, other than the present, is history.

I've just never understood the statement that we (as USAnians) don't have any history...your definition may help bring me some clarity. Thumb Up

tozy:

Doesn't almost every nation have dark moments in their past?

Absolutely. The question now is...do you look back on those dark moments and decide to pay the penance for the "sins of the fathers?" Or do you acknoledge those dark moments and make the necessary strides to ensure that they won't happen again?

Unfortunately, here in the States, it's becoming more and more obvious that the majority of people have no idea whatsoever about the "history" of the U.S...either that or they just don't care. Which leads into the fact (and one of my biggest fears) that almost everything, here in the U.S., is being catered to these morons. Just look the amount of crap that is being bought and sold here.

fatpie42:

Calling our royalty 'backwards' is easy for those whose country had only just been discovered when our first Queen Elizabeth was making sure our country was recognised and respected.

I also don't agree w/calling the UK's monarchy "backwards." Just for the simple fact that I believe in the statement, "Different strokes for different folks." In other words, what works for somebody may not work for somebody else...and obviously, the UK's monarchy system is working for them as it's been in place for all these years w/almost no public outcry for change.

fatpie42:

A heritage that America is blatantly jealous of (hence the American people mourning the death of OUR princess!).

I don't necessarily believe that it's a jelousy of heritage...more like a jelousy of having political figures worth mourning. White laugh

posted by GP

fatpie42:

Um... would you mind not calling us a dictatorship? We actually elected our PM (goodness knows why).

Actually what I said was that the British system is built on a dictatorship...it's different. I can't really post much now, but if I were British, I would be organizing an army and marching on Buckingham Palace...those people are a parasitic evil, and a lot of the bullshit you see in the US with the media, celebrities, etc., is an aftershock from our roots in their family's dictatorship...and Fatpie, nothing inspires in Americans more hatred than the "jealousy" argument! No one is jealous of those inbred twits except for their fabulously wealthy counterparts in the US and elsewhere!

And also, I think if you believe that two hundred plus years of lawful succession of the head of state is not a history, I think it's time for a civics lesson...

posted by holy_of_holies

where to begin

the monarchy

while you are right to say that Britain is based on a royal dictatorship...the queen is now largely a symbolic figure in Great Britain...her roles being mostly throwbacks to when the monarch had real power in governing the people...she is responsible for opening and closing of parliment and for the Prime minister has to ask her for permission to call the general elections etc

much of modern british patriotism stems from recent times rather than through long history...the second world war being a major instigator in the "British" thing

even more strange is the uprising in Scottish patriotism...which actually only really reamerged when Braveheart came out at the cinemas...this dangerously came close to anti English rather than pro Scottish patriotism

i am among a minority in my circle of friends that i even class myself as proud to be British...many people that i know prefer to be regarded as Scottish

i suppose this is only to be expected when you look at the Scottish and British standards (flags)

it is concieved as an English flag (the st george cross) being dominant over the ulster flag (the red hand) and the scottish flag (the saltire)

i guess there are loads of reasons..but most of them probably stem from kicking peoples asses in wars...especially the french

White laugh

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posted by the anomaly

man is only half himself
the other half is a bright thing
he tumbles on by luck or grace
for man is ever a blind thing

tozy:

fatpie42:

Americans can't be proud of their history. America doesn't have any history!

Yes but your country was the spearhead of a deliberate plot to destroy democracy in the world. America has always stood up for democracy because we lived under British tyrants for the first century or so of our history. This is why I don't get the whole British patriotism thing...it wasn't until Churchill that a British hereditary aristocrat did anything worthwhile. The people the British value most - at least by the amount of attention and priveliege they get - are the worst enemies of Britain who ever walked the island. Their whole system of thought is based on class and rivalry, whereas American thought is based on consensus. It's easy for a tyrant on a little island in the North Sea to demand people obey him, but try to inflict that will on the rest of the world - without consensus - and you will get your butt kicked. Of course, we are discovering this now in Iraq, which is why we need help from other countries but may not get it, which is another reason for me to say British patriotism is stupid, because where has it gotten them? They lost their empire, most of their economy, and now their pride in Iraq when terrorists hand them their ass. Now they have Prince William and JK Rowling books to ogle.

The genocide of which you speak was mostly committed by people who were misguided by the racial/colonial ideals of the European powers into thinking that the Native Americans were inferior. The slavery happened everywhere, including Europe. And if you think the Americans treated people poorly, at least we killed them and took their lands instead of destroying their folkways and leaving their country to fester and become a tyranny. Strange as it may sound to you, the American genocide was an effective means of subduing a fiercely resistant people.
And where would you rather live now, America or Rwanda? Your heroes in European history were all genocidal (Alexander, Caesar) or non-existent (Jesus). And I'm with Caesar anyday over a fairytale figment like Jesus.

tozy:

As a post WWII German, I have a hard time with any patriotism. In light of our country's Nazi history, we have been educated to be critical of everything, and suspicious of any form of nationalism in particular.

Then why do they keep coming here? I've asked you this before, tozy...they know we're nationalists - because stupid people around the world with no understanding of the problems we face and have faced insist that we're run by bad guys and that we are complicit in supporting said bad guys by paying taxes and not taking to the streets. So why come here? Could it be because they enjoy living freely for once in their lives and not having to wade through the French "Love Parade" and other stagnant masses of humanity trying to convince itself it doesn't hate itself? Until Europe stops being hypnotized by the religious bunk about "peace and love" which is inculcated into the minds its people from birth, of course they're going to come here looking for a little reality...and we're going to welcome them!

tozy:

Every time I visit the US, I have a hard time understanding the constant presence and use of the American flag and anthem in your daily life, even in school,... and the constant emphasising of the greatness of your nation (no comparison to the little patriotism I have experienced over in the UK)

Friends of mine were in Washington on July 4th. They couldn't believe what the were seeing. In their eyes, the American patriotism and nationalism were unbelievable,.. and frightening!

The flag etc. is to scare dumbasses into line who think they don't live in a country but rather an amusement park. It's a military thing, too, something for people to agree is a good symbol to follow. Also, when I go to Europe I am disgusted by the emphasis on Christian solidarity I see there on that continent where someone as brilliant as Leonard da Vinci was forced to paint pictures of Hebrew peasants in royal finery just to feed himself. Imagine what your people could have done without their sorry "faith". Then Europe might have earned its place in people's hearts instead of digging a hole in the chest of the world with a bayonet and planting a cross there.

tozy:

Americans say their nation is the greatest democracy.
A true democracy involves not only freedom, but also knowledge, enabling the individual to be critical. How can a country be the greatest democracy, if it’s media are controlled by a few and money can buy almost everything? The opinion of the voter is so easily being manipulated….

How many times have you heard an American praise the American MEDIA? Maybe some do, but it's mostly Internet types who obsess over any little glimmer of intelligence that comes out of those fools in Hollywood.
And tozy, I am an American voter, and no one manipulates my opinion. If Hillary ran in 2008 and got elected, you just bet that the feminists in Britain and Europe would spread their legs and beg for America. But she won't get elected because people like me will oppose her and her cryptocommunist allies in the hippie electorate. Someday we'll have a real leader who will generate consensus in the world, but for now, all we have are feuding great families. Which is only natural.

posted by holy_of_holies