»Child Murder, the ultimate solvent«

According to Christianity all children inder a certain age go to heaven even if they were not Christian because God reasons that they could not actually make the choice to be Christain.

So it sounds like simply killing every child just when they are a few months old would send everyone to heaven.

posted by Kupov

in-my-opinion.org -> Religion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolves -> Religious & Philosophical Topics -> Child Murder, the ultimate solvent

Kupov:

So it sounds like simply killing every child just when they are a few months old would send everyone to heaven.

First of, just to clarify, it is an impossible situation.

And If that was the case, God wouldn't have created humans. He would just send us straight to heaven, without going through life, and making choices.

This relates to why God gives us choices thread. God created us, gave us choice, and let us go through life, mistakes and all. He wants it to be real, he wants you to make that choice to follow him. If you have no choice, that would make heaven meaningless. The same applies to why killing every kid, would make heaven meaningless (except for those who are already Christians).
This:

Kupov:

because God reasons that they could not actually make the choice to be Christain.

is a backup plan of some sort. In case a young child dies without being a Christian, this happens. But if you make the backup plan the only plan, I think heaven would lose its meaning, since that was not the original plan for why heaven was made. Heaven was created for Christians.

It is impossible, can't be fully done, and God created it that way.

posted by sangu

sangu:

Kupov:

So it sounds like simply killing every child just when they are a few months old would send everyone to heaven.

First of, just to clarify, it is an impossible situation.

And If that was the case, God wouldn't have created humans. He would just send us straight to heaven

But god did indeed create humans (according to Christianity). So therefore, according to what you're saying, children do not go to heaven if they die just a few months old.

sangu:

But if you make the backup plan the only plan, I think heaven would lose its meaning, since that was not the original plan for why heaven was made. Heaven was created for Christians.

This, however, does not answer kupov's question --- would those infants still go to heaven, if they were intentionally killed to send them there? You can state that the people who do the killing will go to hell if you want; I won't even begin to debate that.

Less than 100% of all people go to heaven (arguably, a lot less). But it sounds like you believe that 100% of all infants go to heaven. It is much better to spend eternity in heaven than to spend 80 years on earth followed by eternity in hell. So if infants go straight to heaven, then as kupov said, killing them is the way to go, in order to save their souls.

But I thought I'd add...

kupov:

According to Christianity all children inder a certain age go to heaven even if they were not Christian because God reasons that they could not actually make the choice to be Christain.

Not all Christians believe this. This is a more recent belief, here in the feel-good era of a loving, benevolent god.

posted by Tiefling

sangu:

That was the long time belief of the Catholic church that you go straight to heaven (if you die as a baby).

BUT: You have to be baptized (that's where the baptizing of small children comes from, since it's not biblical).

So: They started to baptize babies in their mother's womb already which opened whole new questions:

•	"What if we baptize an unborn and there are twins?"

•	"What if we baptize an unborn but it has 2 heads?"

•	"What if we baptize an unborn but it has 1 head but 2 bodies?"

These are questions discussed in Catholic literature.

posted by knn

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Tiefling:

This, however, does not answer kupov's question --- would those infants still go to heaven, if they were intentionally killed to send them there?

Was it a question? Ok, my post was based on this: dead infants all go to heaven. And kupov was going with that, so I didn't think I needed to explain it.

Tiefling:

Less than 100% of all people go to heaven (arguably, a lot less). But it sounds like you believe that 100% of all infants go to heaven. It is much better to spend eternity in heaven than to spend 80 years on earth followed by eternity in hell. So if infants go straight to heaven, then as kupov said, killing them is the way to go, in order to save their souls.

I'm actually not sure what would happen, if it was manipulated this way. I'm was throwing out an idea, that heaven would not be the same. "Can't make a backup plan, the only plan."

Tiefling:

This is a more recent belief, here in the feel-good era of a loving, benevolent god.

What do they believe happens to infants then? I think this infants-go-to-heaven thing is pretty loving and benevolent.

posted by sangu

sangu:

What do they believe happens to infants then? I think this infants-go-to-heaven thing is pretty loving and benevolent.

Yes, that's what I was saying... this is a new belief here in the era of the benevolent Christian god. Note that the god of this era does not tell people to rid the Holy Land of heathens, or to burn witches, or to engage in genocide.

But not all Christians believe that infants automatically go to heaven (as knn illustrated). Some Christians believe in a strict interpretation --- you do not go to heaven unless you are baptized and accept Jesus; and clearly, and infant has done neither.

sangu:

Was it a question?

Kupov is asking, "Why not kill all infants to ensure they get sent to heaven?" So whether or not humans would be taking advantage of the "backup plan," why doesn't it make perfect sense to do this?

posted by Tiefling

Tiefling:

All of Christianity has changed if you look back .Because now people will not except crazy religious groups that beleibve themselves to be superior and want to kill Pagans.

But of course simply killing all of the Children will not work unless everything in the Bible is true and everyone knows it is true, in which case everyone would go to Hell regardless thus this is simply a Utopian concept.

Atheist, will not kill their child becasue they do not beleive in Heaven

Christian) will not kill their child becasue they beleive said child will go to Hell eventually.

posted by Kupov

Tiefling:

Yes, that's what I was saying

Sorry, misread "this" to be a "there" in your previous post.

Tiefling:

you do not go to heaven unless you are baptized and accept Jesus

remember the thread about what happens to people who haven't heard of Christ? Well, I said that God will judge them according to their works. You can apply that here...hence where this infant go to heaven thing came from. They are too young to decide good or evil, so they are...pure (?), in a way I suppose. Untainted. It's not really a fixed belief, more of a surmise.

Kupov:

Christian) will not kill their child becasue they beleive said child will go to Hell eventually

Ok...where in the bible did it say that all people will go to hell no matter what?
And you really have a thing with "said" don't you? Very Happy

posted by sangu

sangu:

It's not really a fixed belief, more of a surmise.

Right. But because it's not a fixed belief, there's no reason to assume it's true --- and there are Christians who therefore don't surmise it's true.

sangu:

where in the bible did it say that all people will go to hell no matter what?

The bible says that the only way to heaven is through Jesus and baptism. An infant has clearly done neither.

posted by Tiefling

This:

Tiefling:

where in the bible did it say that all people will go to hell no matter what?

was because of this:

Kupov:

Christian) will not kill their child becasue they beleive said child will go to Hell eventually.

Not all christians believe their kids inevitably go to hell. I don't understand, maybe it's wrongly worded.

Tiefling:

The bible says that the only way to heaven is through Jesus and baptism. An infant has clearly done neither.

Yep, not a fixed belief. Just an explanation derived from what we can gather from the verses, and our basic understanding of Jesus' nature. He loved little children (please, no pedophile references here) and said that to get into heaven one had to be like a little kid (of simple faith). He was also rather fair and caring. Letting all infants go to hell, when they have absolutely no say in their fate, is unfair.

What I don't get still is:

Kupov:

Christian) will not kill their child becasue they beleive said child will go to Hell eventually.

posted by sangu

sangu:

Letting all infants go to hell, when they have absolutely no say in their fate, is unfair.

My point in mentioning that there are/were Christians who believe the default is hell is to debate kupov, not you, sangu. I respect, and agree with, your point that this would make Christianity quite unfair (which is not to say that this proves your point, though!). Basically, I'm saying that the Christian theology can be constructed logically on the premise that that people by default go to hell, without explicitly contradicting anything in the bible; therefore, kupov shouldn't assume that all Christians feel that infants go to heaven.

Now, if we assume that there is some age before which humans automatically go to heaven, after which they automatically go to hell, then kupov's point seems to stand quite solidly. Every Christian is forced to agree that it's much better to die at birth than to spend eternity in hell. In which case, why should one not kill infants to save their souls?

posted by Tiefling

Here's a scenario. Let's say you know (for certain; god imparts the knowledge to you) that if your child reaches age 18 alive, that your child will end up in hell for all eternity. Say that your child is born and raised Christian, but that at age 18, your child becomes exposed to, and accepts, atheism. Wouldn't it be in your child's best interest to not make it to age 18 alive?

posted by Tiefling

sangu:

Not all christians believe their kids inevitably go to hell. I don't understand, maybe it's wrongly worded.

very wrongly worded, that should say Heaven.

Tiefling:

kupov shouldn't assume that all Christians feel that infants go to heaven.

Most Christians I have talked too know that them and their family are going to Heaven.

Tiefling:

The bible says that the only way to heaven is through Jesus and baptism. An infant has clearly done neither.

Okay but the bible also states that since they never could have maid that choice if they were too young,African Tribesman ETC and the bible also states that the Rapture will come to pass when every person in the world who could have accepted Jesus into their hearts and they have not, this is very unprovable by the way because you will always have Christians stating that their are more people.

Tiefling:

(for certain; god imparts the knowledge to you) that if your child reaches age 18 alive, that your child will end up in hell for all eternity. Say that your child is born and raised Christian, but that at age 18, your child becomes exposed to, and accepts, atheism. Wouldn't it be in your child's best interest to not make it to age 18 alive?

This is exactly my point.

sangu:

Yep, not a fixed belief.

Why not? if this one is not a fixed beleif then why is being anti homosexual?

posted by Kupov

Tiefling:

Ah, heh, well I just like to countermand anything I see. True, it's a shaky/sketchy stance. But from the accumulation of verses, they nudge us to this direction.

Tiefling:

why should one not kill infants to save their souls?

I think it's an evil manipulation of what God has provided us. God created each one of us to have a purpose in life, our existence affects a lot.

Tiefling:

Wouldn't it be in your child's best interest to not make it to age 18 alive?

If in that rare case, yes. But that is just from a robotic, statistical standpoint. I think God also gave parents some maternal instinct to love our kids, so eventhough they know their child is doomed, i think they would still nurture and love it. Love the kid, hate the sin. They wouldn't want to be guilty of murder.

Kupov:

Most Christians I have talked too

Exactly, not all.

Kupov:

Okay but the bible also states that since they never could have maid that choice if they were too young

Never. It just said that God will judge them by their heart, works.

Kupov:

Why not? if this one is not a fixed beleif then why is being anti homosexual?

being against homosexual is more clear in the bible. there are several verses denouncing it. But left to interpretation of course.

posted by sangu

sangu:

I think it's an evil manipulation of what God has provided us. God created each one of us to have a purpose in life, our existence affects a lot.

It mainly affects the fact that we go to Hell, how could this God be so selfish as to place us in a world with no proof of his existance and allow a lucky few (purely by chance) to go to Heaven, and then calls it evil to exploit a loophole in the bible (there should be no loopholes as this book is supposedly written by the divine)

sangu:

If in that rare case, yes.

That case is not rare, I used to be a Christian untill just quite recently actually.

sangu:

being against homosexual is more clear in the bible. there are several verses denouncing it. But left to interpretation of course.

Tiefling:

The bible says that the only way to heaven is through Jesus and baptism. An infant has clearly done neither.

This seems very clear to me.

sangu:

i think they would still nurture and love it

Then they (if they truly knew the child would go to Hell an it is not just speculation) would be the most selfish people on the plantet.

posted by Kupov

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