»Psychiatrists are far too mighty for their bogus diagnosis«

Francesca Allan:

How exactly do you prove someone incapable of sound decision-making? Should everyone who makes poor decisions be judged incompetent?

Exactly my point.

If I had to chose between an all-prominent psychiatry (that frequently goes through the neighbourhood or schools to find out "who is at risk") and the complete abolishing of psychiatry (at the costs of some schizophrenics that don't get their feel-good drugs) I would chose the abolishing.

Psychiatry has proven throughout the history that it is a very dangerous thing, with bogus treatments and bogus assessment (= it has proven that there ARE INDEED bogus elements in it thus it could be classified as a bogus science). Add to it, that psychiatry gets BILLIONS of governmental (govern-mental) money AND it has the power to lock up/torture innocents and you have a very valid reason for any anti-psychiatric movement.

And whatever values psychiatry has: There must, must, must be an alternative to forced psychiatry.

posted by knn

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in-my-opinion.org -> Politics -> Psychiatry and Anti-Psychiatry -> Psychiatrists are far too mighty for their bogus diagnosis

knn:

Francesca Allan:

How exactly do you prove someone incapable of sound decision-making? Should everyone who makes poor decisions be judged incompetent?

You're engaging in hyperbole and black/white thinking knn. And apparently you have little compassion for all the people in the world (though they may be few in number compared to the total population) who suffer the debilitating symptoms of a painful psychotic disorder and would likely suffer immeasurably more pain if they were not allowed treatment with medication.

knn:

Psychiatry has proven throughout the history that it is a very dangerous thing, with bogus treatments and bogus assessment (= it has proven that there ARE INDEED bogus elements in it thus it could be classified as a bogus science).

Would you call the United Nations a "bogus organization" because certain people within its operational structure are not honest? And what about science in general? Is science in general a "bogus" discipline because there is fraud within its ranks? Like with your arguments against natural selection, you present no new evidence and no real theoretical structure, but merely denigrate a widely useful paradigm.

knn:

Add to it, that psychiatry gets BILLIONS of governmental (govern-mental) money AND it has the power to lock up/torture innocents and you have a very valid reason for any anti-psychiatric movement.

I think you have no idea what the antipsychiatry movement is capable of. It is likely that if the movement is not closely monitored, we could see it becoming similar to the "animal rights" movement, which long ago turned to violence and terrorism as well as activism to achieve its aims.

posted by holy_of_holies

holy_of_holies:

Science in general is NOT dangerous. So whatever bogus elements are in it, they don't threaten to incarcerate innocents based on bogus diagnosis.

Psychiatry could be compared with an arm of science that tried to genertically produce bacteria that will make everyone happy once spread into the air... on the premise that everyone's brain is out of chemical balance and that side effects like memory loss are negligible. THAT would be a science comparable to psychiatry.

And YES, such a science should be forbidden/ harshly monitored.

holy_of_holies:

And apparently you have little compassion for all the people in the world (though they may be few in number compared to the total population) who suffer the debilitating symptoms of a painful psychotic disorder and would likely suffer imeasurably more pain if they were not allowed treatment with medication.

Where the heck do I forbid people to take psycho-drugs?

holy_of_holies:

I think you have no idea what the antipsychiatry movement is capable of. It is likely that if the movement is not closely monitored

Well, if psychiatry is not closely monitored things far more evil can happen.

posted by knn

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Science in general is NOT dangerous. So whatever bogus elements are in it, they don't threaten to incarcerate innocents based on bogus diagnosis.

Is "incarceration" in a hospital really the worst thing that can happen to a person? What about suicide? Prison? Homelessness? Chronic alcoholism or drug abuse? Psychiatry has the potential to positively reshape the way these problems are dealt with in society from a punitive system to a rehabilitative system.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Where the heck do I forbid people to take psycho-drugs?

Where the heck did I say you forbid people to take psychiatric medications (as if you could do that)? All I'm saying, is you seem to have little compassion for people with mental illness - hell knn you seem to have little compassion for anyone but yourself just going by your posts on this site. Your general concern seems to be mainly in denigrating practical and useful knowledge structures in favor of your own personal untested hypotheses, and I rarely see any comments out of you that indicate a compassion towards any group.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

I think you have no idea what the antipsychiatry movement is capable of. It is likely that if the movement is not closely monitored

Well, if psychiatry is not closely monitored things far more evil can happen.

It is closely monitored! It operates within the law, regardless of whether you agree with that law, whereas the antipsychiatry movement recieves very little oversight and is not recognized by law enforcement for the potential security threat that it is.

posted by holy_of_holies

Let me also add that since there is no guarantee that psychiatrists themselves are noble, fair, right-judging and free of some undercover feelings against women (the typical patient is female) it is simply too much power in the hands of single unmonitored persons (= psychiatrists) to be able to force someone into asylums, into drugs, into life-destruction.

Even if a court gives you right to speak in front of it, you may be drugged by your psychiatrist thus you will never be able to formulate a straight thought.

The power of a psychiatrist is dangerous for every mentally healthy person.

posted by knn

holy_of_holies:

It is closely monitored! It operates within the law

Yes, but the psychiatrist defines whether a person should be forcefully taken into asylum. Per law he is allowed to DECLARE and to EXECUTE his own declaration. Legalized brutality.

holy_of_holies:

Is "incarceration" in a hospital really the worst thing that can happen to a person?

Yes.

holy_of_holies:

All I'm saying, is you seem to have little compassion for people with mental illness

I simply have too much compassion to protect the mentally healthy.

holy_of_holies:

you seem to have little compassion for anyone but yourself just going by your posts on this site.

Look, who is talking. _I_ am not the one who deletes other's posts if they disagree with mine. _I_ am not the one who starts rant vendettas against other users.

posted by knn

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Is "incarceration" in a hospital really the worst thing that can happen to a person?

Yes.

Worse than death in the electric chair or from HIV/AIDS contracted by unsafe IV drug use to alleviate symptoms of psychosis? You know, they had a name for mental illness in the old days before psychiatry, knn, and that was "witchcraft." A lot worse things than getting locked up in an asylum happened to those "witches" before people started to recognize that they were simply sick people who needed help.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

All I'm saying, is you seem to have little compassion for people with mental illness

I simply have too much compassion to protect the mentally healthy.

Exactly! You would protect the sensiblilities of the majority at the expense of the physical wellbeing of the minority. That is not the way my country works, I don't know about yours. A mentally healthy person who knows how to stay out of trouble has nothing to fear from a psychiatrist. Police or FBI, maybe they might be something for the mentally healthy to fear. But psychiatry, never.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

you seem to have little compassion for anyone but yourself just going by your posts on this site.

Look, who is talking. _I_ am not the one who deletes other's posts if they disagree with mine. _I_ am not the one who starts rant vendettas against other users.

knn, I am a writer and I express myself and my human emotions through words. If you want to ban me, ban me- but I won't let you censor me. You've tried to do that before on the IMO public forum and it hasn't worked. Is this site your blog? I'll answer for you: no, it's not, it's a public forum. The posts I deleted were on my blog, and thus I had every right to delete them. If you want to start a blog and delete posts, start one. Or if you want to delete my blog, delete it. But don't tell me how to write, if only for the reason that you could learn a thing or two from me if you would take the time to discover how important is the knowledge you denigrate. I have four blogs and I have only deleted posts on this one, for the simple reason that I face a hostile audience on this site due to the fact that you have had a lot of time to whip your users into a frenzy against anything you percieve as threatening.

posted by holy_of_holies

holy_of_holies:

Exactly! You would protect the sensiblilities of the majority at the expense of the physical wellbeing of the minority.

You are blatantly misstating "human rights" as "sensibilities".

It is NOT a sensibility that the majority of the population wants to have a safe environment without the threat of sudden psychiatric intervention.

And probably the anti-psychiatric movement has already protected you from the reach of psychiatrists.

holy_of_holies:

Police or FBI, maybe they might be something for the mentally healthy to fear. But psychiatry, never.

holy_of_holies:

but I won't let you censor me. You've tried to do that before on the IMO public forum

What? I censored you? When?

holy_of_holies:

knn, I am a writer and I express myself and my human emotions through words.

Another misstatement like your "sensibilities" expression. DELETING OTHERS' POSTS is not "expressing yourself through words".

holy_of_holies:

for the simple reason that I face a hostile audience on this site due to the fact that you have had a lot of time to whip your users into a frenzy against anything you percieve as threatening.

You are lucky that I am not an active psychiatrist. Such a paranoid statement could be unhealthy otherwise.

posted by knn

holy_of_holies:

Exactly! You would protect the sensiblilities of the majority at the expense of the physical wellbeing of the minority.

Moreover you forget that every cent that goes to psychiatry is of course missing in other medical braches. Thus by supporting the so called mentally ill, the mentally healthy suffer.

posted by knn

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Exactly! You would protect the sensiblilities of the majority at the expense of the physical wellbeing of the minority.

Moreover you forget that every cent that goes to psychiatry is of course missing in other medical braches. Thus by supporting the so called mentally ill, the mentally healthy suffer.

Oh, so money is the problem. Well I guess that's true if you ignore the Four Hundred Billion Dollars the United Staes will spend in the 2006 defense budget mainly to combat mentally disturbed dictators and terrorists like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden for the protection of the mentally healthy and mentally ill whom they threaten.
If the preventive measure were taken of subjecting such people to compulsory treatment for their disturbances, there would be plenty of unused Defense dollars to spend on all kinds of medical research. Oh but that's Orwellian and a terrible precedent! White laugh

More Orwellian than 9/11 or Gulf War II? Not again

posted by holy_of_holies

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Exactly! You would protect the sensiblilities of the majority at the expense of the physical wellbeing of the minority.

Wrong. The US Bill of Rights and US Statutes protect me from that kind of thing. The antipsychiary movement is what convinced me to avoid getting help until I was in such pain and distress that I flipped out and got myself arrested.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

Police or FBI, maybe they might be something for the mentally healthy to fear. But psychiatry, never.

Well come on then! Let's see the evidence for the big conspiracy. Just a [ White laugh

] won't convince anybody.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

but I won't let you censor me. You've tried to do that before on the IMO public forum

What? I censored you? When?

No you're misrepresenting what I said knn. I said you tried to censor me, not that you succeeded. It was in the thread about »What the Bleep Do We Know«, in which you told me to stop using the word "sect," leading to my quitting the site again.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

knn, I am a writer and I express myself and my human emotions through words.

Another misstatement like your "sensibilities" expression. DELETING OTHERS' POSTS is not "expressing yourself through words".

I didn't say it was.

knn:

holy_of_holies:

for the simple reason that I face a hostile audience on this site due to the fact that you have had a lot of time to whip your users into a frenzy against anything you percieve as threatening.

You are lucky that I am not an active psychiatrist. Such a paranoid statement could be unhealthy otherwise.

No the entire world is lucky that people like you could never make it through medical school to become psychiatrists because you refuse to acknowledge empirical evidence for the efficacy of treatment.

posted by holy_of_holies

holy_of_holies:

Oh, so money is the problem.

Money _IS_ of course part of the problem. And psychiatrists are greedy people. Actually they are greedy people + they love to drug others. Why else would someone become psychiatrist? No mentally healthy person would like to work in an asylum and drug others until they cannot talk.

holy_of_holies:

Well I guess that's true if you ignore the Four Hundred Billion Dollars the United Staes will spend in the 2006 defense budget mainly to combat mentally disturbed dictators and terrorists like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden

First of all you are again changing the topic. Now psychiatry is the solution for politics.

First you wanted social psychiatry (going from neighbourhood to neighbourhood), now you want political psychiatry and next you want sports psychiatry (for every player after a lost game) and family psychiatry (for every family with puberting teenagers).

There is no limit to the use of psychiatry since it's psychiatry itself that defines when it is needed. Don't you see that they are legislators (via lobbyist groups and drugged politicians), accusers, judges and executives in 1 person? IT IS DANGEROUS.

If psychiatry is so great and efficient then every sick could be healed and would never commit a crime again. The reality shows a different picture. The business of declaring others "mad" is a cheap trick and the best is to keep bogus diagnosis out of politics and the legal system.

posted by knn

knn:

There is no limit to the use of psychiatry since it's psychiatry itself that defines when it is needed. Don't you see that they are legislators (via lobbyist groups and drugged politicians), accusers, judges and executives in 1 person? IT IS DANGEROUS.

Well it's a dangerous world knn. Lots of bad people out there, including some psychiatrists. Doesn't mean you can overthrow hundreds of years of research and development with a few rhetorical tricks.

knn:

If psychiatry is so great and efficient then every sick could be healed and would never commit a crime again. The reality shows a different picture. The business of declaring others "mad" is a cheap trick and the best is to keep bogus diagnosis out of politics and the legal system.

Oh give me a break. By that logic, if Physical Therapy is so great, amputees could grow back limbs that have been severed. That doesn't make any sense.

posted by holy_of_holies

holy_of_holies:

Well come on then! Let's see the evidence for the big conspiracy.

You don't need a conspiracy. Just the fact that psychiatry has been used politically to lock up political competitors is enough.

Simply declare "communism" as a mental disease.

holy_of_holies:

Wrong. The US Bill of Rights and US Statutes protect me from that kind of thing.

US statutes are the last thing that matters when they turn on the electroshock machine.

posted by knn

Quote:

US statutes are the last thing that matters when they turn on the electroshock machine.

You are so right, knn! Mental patients are effectively less than human so human rights legislation doesn't apply to them. In British Columbia, anyone treated under the auspices of the Mental Health Act is specifically excluded from other legislation that might otherwise help them such as the Representation Agreement Act (where people are allowed to appoint proxies to make their health care decisions).

posted by Francesca Allan

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