»Can Omniscience and Free Will coexist?«
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 This is something that has bugged me for quite a while now. If God is omniscient (meaning he knows everything), how can we have free will? If God already knows what we are going to do, there's no way we can choose the outcome of our lives. The way I see it, omniscience and free will are opposite concepts. One cancels the other out. So, in my opinion there can only be two possible explanations: Either we don't have freedom of choice, or God isn't omniscient. What do you think? posted by Echelon |
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| in-my-opinion.orgReligion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolvesReligious & Philosophical TopicsCan Omniscience and Free Will coexist? |
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 Why do you say because God knows what we are going to do that we cant choose? God would be like the Oracle, he knows every possible outcome to all our choices but it is still us that makes those choices. He is omniscient and knows everything but he cant affect free will, that is what makes us human. posted by Crossfade |
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Yes. It is us who make the choices, but if someone already knows what we will choose (the exact choice we will make, not the possible scenarios), the "choices" we make are nothing but an illusion. It's true that we made the choice, but if someone already knows (omniscient being), then we simply do not have the choice. Am I explaining myself?  posted by Echelon |
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 are you still not making the choice you want? free will? i kinda see it as both are possible. as in a thread on MeX i believe an omniscient being would be outside the realm of time and have seen everything that has and will happen. hard for us mere humans to comprehend, but this does not mean our choices are any less real. just because God can see the end point of us, doesn't mean we don't choose ourselves how to get to that end point. posted by The ONEder Man |
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 The problem is Time. If you consider God to exist in Time, the way that we do -- that is, if God experiences Time the same way that we do, as past, present and future, with 'omniscience' being the knowledge of past, present and future -- then free will is irreconcilable with omniscience. On the other hand, if Time does not exist for God, as we understand it, then the two can coexist quite peacefully! If God is both omniscient and omnipresent, or both omniscient and omnipotent (either way shouldn't matter - though, omnipotence bugs me... the koan-like adage of, can an all-powerful being create a stone so heavy that even hecan't lift it?) then Time is meaningless for God. Past, present and future are one. Perhaps a parable in the style of the Old Masters might help elucidate this idea: A painter paints a portrait, and as he paints, he watches his brush make each loving stroke across the canvas. He sees the portrait brush stroke by careful brush stroke. He sees it take form in Time -- he sees each stroke as it happens. An art lover views the same portrait, now finished. She sees all the brush strokes, individually. She sees each brush stroke as part of the whole portrait. She sees the entire portrait as one complete picture, made up of thousands of careful brush strokes. She marvels at its beauty, because it took Time to create the whole from the sum of its parts. As she looks at the portrait, she is outside of the Time it took to make it. --- We, who exist in 'Time,' are the painters of the universe, each of our choices being another stroke of the brush. To an 'omniscient being,' or someone who exists hypothetically outside 'Time,' the painting is complete, all the choices, to that being's view, already made; the future and the past are one with the present -- there is no distinction. In this model, fate is the image of the finished universe, which we can sometimes glimpse bits of, but only a so-called 'omniscient being' can see completely. The omniscient being and fate can coexist with choice and free will without difficulty and without contradiction. The free will choices that shape our future exist, for God, 'without Time'. Am I making any sense? 
posted by annaerullo |
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...and my answer doesnt change If he knows every possible choice we could ever make (even down to a sub-atomic/cellular level) everything is mapped out for us all like some giant machine that works to set rules, then no, we don't really have free will...or do we?
Just because he might know everything does that make our choices any less important? to us it's just living, to him it must be heartbreaking to see each and every mistake we will make before we make it and he cant help us...it's all our choice at every branch in the path. I know what you say, if it's pre-ordaned then how can it be a choice? I hope he doesnt know but if he does...it's still my choice 
And as i write this, two posts accur Hope it makes sense
posted by Crossfade |
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why can't there be infinite paths of the choices we make? each in which has been observed and experienced by an omniscient being..who knows all the possible outcomes of each path, and each end result? that still constitutes as free will of its participants posted by The ONEder Man |
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Just getting up in the morning and going to the bathroom alone must present millions of different paths to what 'might' happen. you could get up and a plane lands on the house, you dive left or right or forward or backwards or 132degrees west or a dog runs up the stairs and bites your foot or the clock lands on your foot or or or or or... God might know each path no matter how small but we don't, so it's our choice at the end of the day, not his posted by Crossfade |
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so if God knows each of these possible choices in his infinite wisdom, it doenst' mean God influences them, still your choice, he just knows the end result of which ever infinite path you chose posted by The ONEder Man |
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 No, omniscience and free will cannot coexist. Here's one proof of it... Definitions
Given: Let A be some action that I am capable of performing, and let ~A be a set of actions that I am also capable of performing, such that I must perform either A or some action in ~A. Assumption: Assume that the omniscient being knows for certain that I will perform A. Proof:
posted by Tiefling |
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 Why does "knowing the future" contradict "free will". After all, knowing the future is simply knowing future free will. posted by knn |
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The fact that omniscience and free will cannot coexist is counterintuitive but true. Intuition makes it seem as if knowing the future is a passive action and thus does not affect free will. However, by knowing the future (not just predicting, but knowing), the events in the future must take place. Thus by knowing what someone will do in the future, that person has no choice but to do that deed, and thus lacks free will in the decision to do it. Say, for example, that you know I will go to McDonald's at 5pm on Friday. When 5pm on Friday rolls around, I have to go to McDonald's. There is no chance that I will not go to McDonald's --- if there were a chance, then you wouldn't have known that I was going to go to McDonald's at 5pm on Friday, but instead would have predicted that I was going to go to McDonald's. Now, from my perspective, when 5pm Friday rolls around, I don't feel any strange compulsion to go to McDonald's. I have no knowledge that my actions are preordained and thus 100% unavoidable. I still approach the situation in my typical fashion --- I consider going to Wendy's or Subway, but then settle on McDonald's. posted by Tiefling |
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That leads to the question "Does a future exist?" Because maybe there is no f-u-t-u-r-e. Maybe there is only a "probable future". Thus is there is real free will, then there can be no all-knowing gods. posted by knn |
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 Unless it is the end of the world - "there is no future" makes no sense at all. There is always a future. Just because there is not yet a future does not mean that I do not know what will happen. Based on observed uniformities I can often predict very well what will happen in future. With enough resources it might even make sense that I can predict an awful lot more things. With infinite resources of omniscience then why should I not know everything? And it still does not seem obvious what knowledge of the future has to do with free will! posted by fatpie42 |
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Quote: Unless it is the end of the world - "there is no future" makes no sense at all It means "There is no certain future". Anything can change - by free will. posted by knn |
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