»Why did Jesus say that His Father had forsaken Him?«

It is written that Jesus' final words were, "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?"

If Jesus was God incarnate; and knew of his fate; and the sacrifice that He was to make, why would He accuse God of forsaking him?

posted by ipsism

in-my-opinion.org -> Religion and Mysteries, from worship to werewolves -> Religious & Philosophical Topics -> Why did Jesus say that His Father had forsaken Him?

Supposedly, as far as my research has gathered, it is a sin to die, or that because we men sin we have to die, so in dying you have performed a sin, though the death itself is not a sin.

Ok, so if you die, you are guilty of performing a sin, in our case we are born sinfull, but Jesus was not. So like Adam and Eve (before they performed a sin) Jesus would live forever, he could not die of old age or be killed, he could in no way die.

Ok, Then we have this passage:

" For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." ( 2Cor. 5:21)

So, God made jesus sinfull at the moment of his death to make him able to die.
Then again, supposedly, God can not look at sin (which I don't understand fully, perhaps he ,,looks away" from someone performing a sin.) so when God made Jesus sinful, which he supposedly was not throughout his life and then looked away, thus forsaking him.

posted by Pawnatron

The Chief of this forum will call me a genius, move me to Moscow, and give me a
million bucks hard currency

How can it be a sin to die? To kill yourself, yes; but not just to die. Or to be killed as with a crucifixion. No one has control over being killed, so that can not be a sin.

There are many citations of God viewing sin, as with Sodom and Gomorrah, where God saw the evil and ordered their destruction / or pre-diluvian where God saw the evil of man and decided upon man's destruction with the flood.

Regardless, it does not address the question of Jesus saying that his father had forsaken him. If Jesus was God incarnate, he could not forsake himself. Supposedly, Jesus knew in advance of the time and circumstance of his death, an indication of his omniscience and divinity. So, again, if Jesus knew all of this in advance and was, himself, God incarnate, why would he say that God had forsaken him?

posted by ipsism

just an old coot

ipsism:

As stated in my answere: the death itself is not a sin.

See, when God made Adam and Eve (and when I am saying this I am not telling it as a fact, just phrasing it that way) they were born into the world witout sin. They did not have to work, harvest the soil for food, have child labor, bla bla bla ... and, they were immortal. They would not age and die.

But, as God stated: if you eat from the forbidden tree you will surly die.
Now, a bit confusing since when Adam and Eve ate from the tree they did not die ... but many years later; From old age (Which was the death God was telling them about, not instant death that is but gradual death).

So only with sin comes death...

But Jesus had to die, but how could he without sin, since he was born without sin he could not die ... so ...
" For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." ( 2Cor. 5:21)

Thus Jesus was able to die, and as stated in my post above, God would not look at sin so when he made it possible for Jesus to die he looked away, and that's when Jesus felt like God was forsaking him...

So in a sense, Jesus was not dying on the cross but until he said ,,Why have you forsaken me" and then he died.

And I am not trying to be patronizing with this method of explanation, with all the "thus's" and "so's", only trying to make it simple since hey, I am no expert...

posted by Pawnatron

ipsism:

Regardless, it does not address the question of Jesus saying that his father had forsaken him. If Jesus was God incarnate, he could not forsake himself. Supposedly, Jesus knew in advance of the time and circumstance of his death, an indication of his omniscience and divinity. So, again, if Jesus knew all of this in advance and was, himself, God incarnate, why would he say that God had forsaken him?

God is a Trinity, so Jesus and God are not strictly the same person, Jesus died as a man, but in no way can God die. But Jesus the holy spirit is God.

Its all the same guy and at the same time a trinity (three hep' guys). So I don't see any problem with God forsaking Jesus as a man...
Jesus prayed to God, he wasnt talking to himself since, as man, God had power over Jesus...

If I understand this Trinity correctly...

Jesus (Man)
Holy Spirit (Both)
God (God)

Jesus was afraid of dying and asked God to help him, I cant see how making yourself not afraid by mumbling to yourself works.

posted by Pawnatron

Sorry, but that still does not address the question of why he said that God had forsaken him. If Jesus knew the plan and what was to happen, wouldn't he have known why things had to happen?

There would have been no reason to say that God had forsaken him, especially if he believed that he was to fulfill prophesy.

posted by ipsism

[quote="ipsism"]Sorry, but that still does not address the question of why he said that God had forsaken him. If Jesus knew the plan and what was to happen, wouldn't he have known why things had to happen?

Uhm, again - I am no expert. But I was under the impression Jesus wasnt all knowing, as a man.
He had to persuade himself that death was the only way for him to fulfill his ,,mission''.

So no, I don't think he knew exacly how things would develope. To the best of my knowlage he put his fate in the hands of God, so he didint have it all planned out in his head, and he did not know that he would not die without sin...

Of course, there are probably lots of people that claim that jesus is all knowing, and lots of people that claim he was not. Still, the fact he felt God had forsaken him makes the ,,not all knowing'' theory all the more probable.

posted by Pawnatron

Bah, this is getting way beyong my inital understanding of God and Jesus. The point I am trying to make is that Jesus was not God, walking the earth, being all knowing and all powerfull over everything.

In the bible jesus is only able to do the things humans, theoreticly (accoring to the bible), should also be able to do, but not being 100% positive in the existance of God you cant heal blindness (and all that ... stuff).

e.g God gave man power over all creatures off the earth. This Jesus demonstrates when he makes a plant wither with his words alone, he can also exercise demons and transfer them into animals and if he wanted to he could have said to a pig ,,go to my laundry'' and the pig would do it.

But neither man nor Jesus could could do all that ,,God createad the heavens and the earth'' business...

___

again, this is all leading to the same point: God and Jesus are not the same guy, when Jesus died he became one with God but as man he was sepparated from God. He was not all knowing, he was capable of sin, though he did not sin, he had to sleep and eat and he got scared and he felt lust and anger and temptation and bla bla bla and was in every aspect like a human human...

If you still do not concurr I forfeit this debate.

posted by Pawnatron

God became man in the flesh, you said it yourself. Its confusing to think about it yes. He said why have you forsaken me because he had, God turned his back on his son because he was full of mans sin. God does not look onto sin and so he turned His back and Jesus knew this, thus the statement, Father why have you forsaken me. Thank you I will be here all week!

posted by Agent Zero

I know naught the answer of the question unless it be for the purpose of delivering this message of witness for you and you and I.
What I' can witness to you is of Our Father and his Almighty, prevailing Love for Our Brother. The same Love by which he raised up Yeshua' from the place of the dust unto the light of the heavens.
Whence forth his spirit comes Now' to every living Soul that believes in the resurrection and acension upon reading the truth of this act.

posted by MAN

It's the first line of Psalm 22 (which Jesus and his contemporaries would have been familiar with). The general take is that Jesus (being busy with dying and what not) called out only the first line as a reference to the entire Psalm (a not uncommon practice even today, people will often just quote one song lyric to indicate the meaning and tone of an entire song is applicable to the situation).

You can read the Psalm here: biblegateway.com...

posted by CaptPostMod

Read my M4! matrix-explained.com...

Yes, CaptPostMod, I believe that you are right in saying that Jesus was reciting Psalms when he expired.

Many believe that Jesus was an Essene Jew. Their sect memorized and recited Psalms for comfort. It is not unreasonable to believe that during the crucifixion Jesus recited the Psalms begining with Psalms 1 and lasted until the beginning of Psalms 22, when he expired.

What is interesting in the posts is the way that people construct various scenarios for the statement. The statements about Jesus' sins are inaposite to the statements that Jesus was the only perfect man, free of sin. And, yes Jesus was supposed to be god incarnate, able to perform miracles that were not within the capabilities of mortals, such as raising the dead, curing leprosy and walking on water as well as feeding the multitude from a basket of fish.

The arguments all seem inadequate to explain the thoughts of a god incarnate who knew the future and could foretell the moment of his death and explain why His Father would turn against him. The explanations of why a God "who so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son" would turn His back on that Son in a time of infinite need also seem inadequate.

God would not have forsaken his beloved, nor would Jesus have questioned His Father who had already given him omniscience as to things to come and the nature of Heaven.

To accept that Jesus questioned why God had forsaken him is to rebuke the divinity of Jesus and to question his teachings.

posted by ipsism

jesus was a bit of a character wasn't he! i wonder if he knew that oneday he'd be this infamous. and if he had, i wonder what he would'ev done differently.

posted by sam1986

The time now is 10 February 2012, 21:08
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